At a Loss... - Olathe,KS

I can relate. My 12 yo dtr is aspergers and ADD and my 9 yo son is ADHD. He's on meds but still is crazy active. A few months ago my husband and I found a book in a thrift store called "A Comprehensive Guide: All About Attention Deficit Disorder" by Thomas W Phelan. It really has great tips in there about Behavior Management for kids up to age 12 and for adolescents. Also about school and meds and all kinds of info. I suggest looking on Amazon.com for it. We have done some things and have seen an improvement in him. These kids are not "typical" kids so you need to adjust the way you handle them. Good luck!

My son was exactly like this a few years ago. I ended up taking him to a counselor because I couldn't deal with it anymore, and I felt like I was doing everything wrong. She suggested that he had Aspergers (sp?) and I thought he had ADD. Anyway, I told her I didn't really need a diagnosis for him, it just helped to know that I wasn't crazy. My son still forgets everything I tell him, hates what I make for dinner and won't eat it, and won't do his homework. But at least he is not throwing his body on the floor anymore.

Mom:

No, you are not alone.

First you need to learn how to control your temper. YOU are the adult. She is the child. I know how hard it is when you have a child that is pushing your buttons - however - when she does - take a deep breath and tell her she has to go to her bedroom for 5 minutes or even 10 minutes while you collect your thoughts - heck - even put YOURSELF in your bedroom - but bottom line? You aren't helping yourself when you lose your temper.

Now, your daughter? She has no boundaries. You are making excuses for her with her ADHD...

So she is late from playing outside? What are the consequences for her actions? If not - she KNOWS she can do it again. Because you don't give her a consequence for her lack of respect and behavior...she does it again...and again...

She's late? She CANNOT go outside to play again until X date. And then? she can only go out for one hour. PERIOD. No fighting. State the facts, ma'am - just the facts. Let her have a fit...tell her if she's going to have her fit - she can have it in her room. She is punished for NOT FOLLOWING DIRECTIONS. PERIOD.

I don't like "starving" children...but if you fixed dinner.. she can eat it or have bread and water...I know that sounds rough - but really - you are not a short order cook and she should NOT be allowed to eat when she wants to eat....

I would sit down with her and write up a contract for her behavior and consequences for her behavior - both good and bad. SHE is NOT bad. Her behavior is BAD. Make sure that she understands you are serious. No means no. If she asks for more. She won't get what she wanted in the first place. PERIOD. YOU ARE THE PARENT. You are NOT supposed to be her best friend...you need to guide her and parent her.

If you want respect? you need to show and give it. Just because she's a kid doesn't mean she doesn't deserve respect.

you want kindness? You need to show it and give it.

Be the mentor. Be the leader. Be the change you want to be. YOU CAN DO THIS!! Stop making excuses for her. Hold her accountable for her actions. Hold yourself accountable too.

YOU CAN DO THIS!!!

What works for me is:
I don't engage in her antics.
I pick my battles
I respect her for who she is, including the parts that I want to change
I don't try to change her, but may try to redirect
I do not get into a power struggle.
She doesn't do her chores, oh well, when she asks for "such and such" or for me to do "something or another" Nope, I can't do it, too busy doing her chores - this always works for me
If she has a tantrum, stomps or whatever - go right ahead, not going to bother me (well I pretend) - If she is yelling and screaming, I tell her she can go do that in her room, if she refuses, I walk away and take a time out in my room.
Come to terms with the fact that she is not like the other kids, she is smart, energetic and thinks outside the box.
She has many talents that main stream kids don't have - nurture her talents. This will help with her self esteem and in turn improve your relationship.

Sounds like she has some control issues, so give her some
She sounds frustrated, most likely from
her ADHD

Read the book Girls and ADHD

Hang in there, it does get better. And you are not alone in your feelings or frustration. Parents of these spirited kids tend to have many mixed emotions with feelings of guilg.

One other thing that is successful for me - I tell her how things are going to go before they happen, she then knows what to expect and it helps eliminate a breakdown, fight or power struggle.
For example: I will say, we are going to the store and you can pick out one treat or toy that cost less than $. Do not ask for anything else, If you pester me, you will not get your treat.

Every night before bed try lying in bed with her with the lights out and just chatting. My kids tell me stuff that never comes up at the dinner table or during our after school conversations. After these conversations, I always think what amazing little people I am raising.

Wow! I could have written this myself. Same struggles, no answers.

My son is ADD with a soupcon of ODD thrown in. He was also an asthmatic child so often sick. We have had our battles - he knows how to push every button I have and we went through an incredible rough patch when he was 12, then again at14.

I put us into family counseling at that point. I just could not seem to find a tact that worked for us and our relationship was spiraling out of control. I did not want a toxic relationship with my son. I had made allowances for him for years because of the ADD, ODD and asthma. He knew I was a push over, but was also constantly testing my love for him by pushing the boundaries - turns out, he expected me to leave him (yeah, there is a absentee father in the story also).

Anyhoo, through therapy, individually, and together, we learned how to talk to each other. We both, individually, explored our fears and how those effected our relationship.

The end result is I have a 16 year old with a better grasp on himself than most of his peers. He has empathy and compassion and while he still knows how to push my buttons, I have learned how to cope with that. For us, humor works, and boundaries, and rules. He knows the consequences up front, and I ensure that I stick to them.

We all clash with our children sometimes - they are their own people and we while we love them we have to learn, at times, to like the people that they are becoming. But we are the parents, and Cheryl O. is correct in saying that there must be boundaries, no matter what their diagnosis is.

Good Luck
Hugs

I have a two-part answer for you.

First, at home, I would strongly recommend a couple of books: "How to Talk So Kids Will Listen...And How to Listen So Kids Will Talk" by Faber and Mazlish will help you focus on your communication skills.(I know, I recommend this book a lot on this forum, and it really is THAT good) The second book is "Taking Charge: Caring Discipline that works at home and at School" by JoAnne Nordling. This book is another one of my go-to, tried and true books. I have a child with some attention issues and this book has really helped us in keeping him on track and responsible for what he needs to be doing without power struggles.

Now, the second part of my answer is this: are there any parent resources, workshops, or groups for families dealing with ADD/ADHD in your area? Soliciting help on this forum is fine, and I also feel like you will get better, more specific advice from parents who have kids with the same challenges and who can relate. Often, these groups are facilitated by a specialist who will understand the unique challenges of raising a child with attention deficit issues.

Aside from her having ADD it does sound like typical kid behavior.

IMO you need to stop feeling guilty about her diagnosis, and beating yourself up. Im sure in a way you over compensating because you are sensitive to her struggle. I think what you need to do is take a step back and evaluate how you want your house to run. ADD or not, kids will push their limits and test their boundaries. Its in their nature. Some kids more then others. As a mom of one EXTREMELY spirited kid I can tell you that some kids just have built in to be button pushers. WHat you describe sounds a lot like my middle guy who's now four.

He's very smart has had amazing vocabulary since he was around two. So he has been and still is the constant question asker. But most of the time when you answer, he'd argue. Or just say "No, thats not it" or something similar. He'd ask to watch a video, Id put it in and two minutes later he'd request another. So Id change it, and two minutes later he'd do it again. Same thing w/ a snack, clothes, toys etc. It was exhausting. Finally after some guidance from a doctor we changed the dynamics.

In the morning Id pull out 2-3 outfits and ask what he wanted to wear. Once he chose, thats it. No changing his mind. Period. Same thing w/ movies, toys, snacks etc. If he threw a fit about it he'd get a timeout, lose a privelege etc.
I think even without your daughter having ADD you'd be experiencing this to some degree. Kids need structure, they need boundaries, They need you to be in control not them. Be firm but fair. One of the best parenting books I've ever read is parenting with love and logic.
In the meantime, stick to your guns. I bet after awhile you'll start to get along much better :)

Is it possible that you are too similar and that's why you clash so much? My oldest son, with ADHD, frustrates me somewhat but he doesn't push my buttons and I think it's because we are totally opposite. My 8 year old son may also have ADHD and he does get on my nerves more because we share many personality traits. He has a compulsive need to prove that he's right, even when he's not. I also enjoy being right about things but have learned to disengage. It's not that important that I win an argument or have the last word with my 8 year old even if he's dead wrong.

Try to shift your viewpoint if possible. She doesn't choose to be this way, and these things that she does are either limitations from her ADHD (coming in late) or fulfill some need that she probably can't articulate or identify (needing to ask one question after another or be right or be constantly validated is like scratching an itch).

If most of your interactions are negative, consider some family counseling. Negative interactions all the time can really take a toll on everyone in the family. Working with a neutral party can bring a lot of clarity and positive energy. My husband gets into a lot of negative patterns with the two of our kids mentioned above and counseling has helped improve those relationships.

Have her start preparing some of the meals - then pick at it and tell her you want something else.
When she asks a question - don't answer right away - before saying anything else, ask her "what do you think?".
It takes 2 to fight - don't be the other side.
This isn't a contest - there is no winner or loser.
If she asks for 1 thing, gets it, then asks for other things - tell her she gets 1 thing - pick one - ANY ONE but one is all she gets (the she can decide which one of what ever).
If she persists, then take the one thing away altogether - greed is going to cost her.

The stomping and attitude does not go over very well with me.
I grew up with a sister that was combative and manipulative - we brawled and pulled each others hair out till we moved away from home.
My son tried copping an attitude with me just once and I told him I could out attitude him any day of the week with one hand tied behind my back - it's not a pleasant way to live - I don't recommend it - he backed down.
We're a family, we love each other and we treat each other with respect and kindness.
That's not too much to ask and expect.

This is the gray area for people who don't understand the ADHD misdiagnosis epidemic. You say she is not misdiagnosed, and I believe you because only you have lived with her and know her. But the things you list as problems here aside from fidgeting and focus and attention-(which are struggles for most of the kids I know including mine-some more than others) are disciplinary, not medical.

What have her consistent, firm consequences been for contradicting you? That is disrespectful talking back. My kids have all tried it and been warned and disciplined for it and therefore now don't do it. My oldest is only 6, but all three of my kids know that habitual contradicting is not allowed. It will get tougher as they get older MAYBE but the foundation is there and I'm not going to back down. I know lots of kids who do that to their parents and huff around and refuse to do chores. Usually the parents have sporadically disciplined it (or not) and sort of just get exasperated and let it go most of the time. My kids don't do it because there would be hell to pay. I was raised the same way. Talking back? huffing? refusing mandatory chores? Having a bad attitude about chores? Not and option. Believe me I tried once or twice as a kid and it didn't end in my favor:) After that, all my dad needed to say was "And smile about it" which became the family joke-but we knew it was also serious. I'm now a self-disciplined productive adult who knows difficult things need to get done, and most importantly, I had to act well in my home and respect my parents. There was no opportunity to do otherwise.

These huffy rebellious fits are not behaviors related to ADHD, these are things NORMAL, hormonal, frustrated kids do when they can get away with it. So to some people it's "normal" but to some people it's absolutely not allowed and would never happen past the first few attempts. It totally depends on her rules and consequences (FIRM ENOUGH and ABSOLUTELY immediate and CONSISTENT?) within a happy respectful home. You need to respect her and treat her well, but without very firm consequences for wrong behavior, YES, she will do these "normal tween" things. It may be more challenging for her to execute the chores in an orderly fast manner etc with ADHD, but that will not account for the angry attitude and bad behavior. There are very sweet kids with ADHD who are disciplined for misbehavior and nurtured for their legitimate problems with concentration etc.

What have her firm and consistent consequences been for disrespectfully refusing her food? Again, my kids would never try that based on early discipline for when they all did it. This is not ADHD behavior, it's just bad behavior.

Get the book Back to Basics Discipline by Janet Campbell Matson and free episodes of World's Strictest Parents on cmt.com since she's getting into teen mentality soon. She may be too old for all the methods in the book, but it is a good guideline as to what should be allowed or not, and some of the consequences on the show may be more appropriate.

You won't need to get angry if you act effectively before you get to that point. Therefore, you will be tougher and stricter, but there won't be the battles and escalation and fighting, there will be more respect, so as a result, you'll have a happier home and daughter even though you are being tougher.

Don't let her win, mom! Good work addressing this. You want to raise a good person not an out-of-control one. You can do it! Getting along better will be the result of being tougher at first. It may get worse before it gets better when she sees you taking charge. But with less anger on your part and more clearly enforced boundaries, you can succeed, and THEN you will have that peaceful relationship with a nicer daughter who respects you.

This is such a hard position to be in. I have been trying to think of an analogy but am having a hard time.

Her brain is firing off impulses thousands per minute and she really has not control over them. The fidgeting and other stuff is really out of her control. There is literally nothing she can do to stop them.

Maybe this will be the right analogy.

Parkinson's disease makes the muscles of the body to odd things. All you have to do to understand this is to watch Micheal J. Fox on a talk show. He is constantly moving his legs, he moves his head like he's flipping his hair off his face, he crosses and uncrosses his legs a lot, he talks with his hands because they won't sit still.

If he was a child doing this him mom would be doing what we're doing. Trying to teach him to sit still, to pay attention, to focus, when in reality he is not able to control the things his body is doing to him any more than Micheal J. Fox's body is controllable by his trying.

I have a 5 year old grandson who is just like your child. He will be sitting on the couch watching TV and suddenly start flipping and knocking the curtains down or the cushions off the couch. Then he can turn around and sit right down and be still for 10 minutes. Then he gets mad over the least little thing and starts flipping tables and throwing furniture.

He is on Ritalin and Depakote. I do not think the Depakote is really having any reaction on him but the Ritalin seems to make a change for about 2 2 1/2 hours. He only gets one 5mg tablet for the whole day so you can imagine how his kindergarten teacher is feeling by lunch time.

I try to remember he is often confused by his actions just like I am. He isn't being nuts just to annoy me, he literally cannot sit still. Just like Micheal J. Fox who is an adult and cannot manage his own body. This is a biological illness that only medication can help.

Check out Dr. Ray.
http://www.drray.com

I don't want to offend anyone with what I'm about to say but.... I DO NOT believe in ADHD. No this is not normal behaviour for any child. With you saying she is really smart, have you thought about taking her up a grade at school? Or even getting work from other grades to keep her mind busy so she doesn't have time to fidget? When you say she contradics you I staight away thought about a debate team stratigie, maybe finding a debate team in her school or around your town? Next time she's late from playing outside take that privlige away, because that's what it is.. A PRIVLIGE not a right. When she does'nt eat anything you cook, you need to stand strong and say that's all you're getting and just leave it at that

My dtr is asperger - so a little different but some of her behavior is my dtr as well haha. I'll address the behaviors I have experience with.

I am very clear on rules and consequences - there is no next time. If I'm not clear and I realize it after the fact - it's a done deal, I let it go and remember it for next time. It's how she works. Everything is routine, so if it happens once, you can bet its routine . . . like I will not drive her to school or pick her up because I can't do it everyday and she would drive me absolutely insane asking . . . my husband on the other hand (he works away, so isn't home everyday, when he is home he picks her up EVERY time, he doesn't care which is fine, but I can't do it everyday).

I don't engage in banter, button pushing or losing my cool with her. She will not get out of my face and go to her room when she's upset, she's very confrontational, I, as the adult, have to remove myself from her presense. I go to my room, shut and LOCK the door or go to the bathroom . . . once she was screaming and knocking on the door for 20 minutes straight . . . but she hasn't done it again because she didn't get a reaction. It's hard, but I refuse to let her control our family. Which means I bite my tongue and move on.

Chores - haha, haven't figured this one out yet. But, I am prepared to do anything I ask her to do because she probably won't do it. And if she does, it would be 3 days later. I ignore the anger when I ask her to do something, I give a time frame and if she doesn't do it, I will - end of story, no fight. I have a "star" system which is magnets on the fridge. When my girls complete a chore or do something I ask, they get a star by their name. Stars can be worth a number of things - whatever motivates them - this summer it was a trip to the zoo, so when the both got X # of stars we went to the zoo. Or to a place they want to eat, a movie, or cash. This particular daughter is 15 and my next one is 7 . . . my 7 year old will try to help her get stars, letting her do the easy chores, almost begging her - it's cute and sad at the same time. I pay my 7 year old a whole lot more than I pay the 15 year old and her stars aren't worth near as much!!

She used to eat like your daughter - it was so frustrating. We went gluten free 5 years ago and it's made an incredible difference in her behavior, but she's still quirky - but food is no longer an issue.

It makes me sad when you say you are two people just not meant to be together - you just have to rise above her and be the adult (trust me when I say this - this is from experience). Walk away, don't give in, it's hard trust me but it will help her. Right now you are spoiling her, giving in. You have to be tough, I don't know how many times I've cried myself to sleep feeling horrible because I know she is different than me and thinks differently and it breaks my heart that she's so out of control. She won't like it at first, and will push your buttons even more, which is even more reason to be your "pleasant" self. It's taken a lot of work and I'd say we are in a better place, her behavior no longer rules our family, she's not in charge - I am.

You should read "Parenting with Love and Logic" - it's really helped.

I am having the same problems as are my friends. They all say it is the tween years, but it is killing my faith in myself as a mother. I want to stop it now and she has started crying when corrected. She never did that as a toddler,

I hope you get great advice. On the spoiling, we are doing an allowance based on chores and she can buy whatever she wants with her money after God and taxes. She is much choosier and takes better care of her stuff.

Is she seeing a therapist? And when is the last time you had her meds checked? Sometimes with hormones changing the meds need to be changed. Some of her behavior is typical of tweens but most you've listed is not, but is typical of ADHD. If she isn't seeing a therapist, then she really does need to start. Her age and behavior calls for it. Good luck and God Bless.

Sounds like the relationship I had with my daughter as she was growing up.
If I said the sky was blue, she would argue with me. If I said oh, you're right it's green, just to stop the argument, she would change her position just to keep the argument going. Like your daughter, she barely ate anything I ever fixed for dinner, even if it was one of what I thought were her favorites. She was just always contrary and stubborn!

I don't have any answers for you; we had a tumultuous relationship for years. She's now 32 and things are better, but it took many years to get here.