Need Help Disciplining--nothing Works

Hi C.. I am only a mother of one 3 year old boy, but think I have bought every book on parenting in the planet. I actually like the positive parenting/gentle discipline the best. www.ahaparenting.com or Elizabeth Pantley "No Cry Discipline Solution" ... Or even the traditional Penelope Leach or Brazelton.

I hope this helps.
Jilly

Have you tried any one technique consistently for a couple of weeks at a time? Discipline is a matter of training him that when he misbehaves such and such will happen each and every time.

You description of your conversation sounds like he's still unsure what will happen. Make the consequence simple and immediate. No conversation.

What worked by my grandchildren was to go to their room. It was not so much a time out as a way to separate them from the misbehavior. They could play or not but they could not come out until they could say that they were sorry and then behave correctly.

I also recommend reading Love and Logic by Foster Cline and ? . It describes how to make the discipline fit the misbehavior. The going to his room would fit with the situation you described. He pours water on his sibs head, he goes to his room because that separates him from his sib. He can come out when he apologizes which teaches him to make "restitution" when he hurts someone else. Taking away his fire trucks doesn't relate to the misbehavior and probably makes no sense to him. I can hear his mind saying, "So what." As you said, doing the misdeed is worth losing the trucks.

I wonder if you're giving too many warnings. "Next time etc." Your goal is to not have a next time. You've just told him he has a choice between good behavior and bad behavior and he can choose bad behavior. I would send him to his room immediately. No choices involved once the behavior has happened. And no warning about next time. IF you take action the first time he'll know you'll take action next time.

I recommend looking into positive discipline. This does NOT mean using praise or rewards. It means setting a child up for success (make sure they are well fed, not tired, etc), modelling the behaviors we want them to emulate and 'getting off your butt parenting' - rather than telling a child that he needs to do something and then threatening, weedling, counting etc - going over to that child, getting down at his level, making sure he is looking at you and listening and telling him what needs to happen. Then making that happen.

That might look like 'DS, we need to go out in 10 minutes so you need to put shoes on. Do you want the blue ones or the brown ones? Child chooses. Do you want to put them on or do you want me to help you? Child either puts shoes on or does not. If not, parent says - I see you want help, and puts shoes on child.

IMO - this seems respectful of the child and the child learns that he has some power in his world (he has choices) and that what needs to happen WILL happen (not a time out or consequence or punishment, but the shoes will go on and you will get out of the house with a shod child).

There is a great Yahoo group on positive discipline if you are interested. Also Laura Markham has a good website with some great insights.

http://www.ahaparenting.com/

I am thinking there is still some jealousy on the arrival of your youngest. Try to catch him when he is being good and praise him for it. Also say to your 5 month old out loud what you 2.5 id doing right that you would like him to learn from him. He will like that you are paying attention to him while you are caring for the 5 month old. Also try to spend some one on one time with your 2.5 so he won't always feel like he's on the sidelines since #3 came around.Good luck

I wouldn't say "next time" about anything. I'd put him in his room, taking him away from the action and fun in the household, and when his time out is over, come in and take a toy. Do it every single time until he notices a big hole in his toy collection. Ask him if he is ready to start behaving better. He sounds like a future lawyer, or salesman, I'm not sure which. You have to beat him at his own game, C..

After you've made point with him, and he's turned things around, ask him if he wants to start earning his toys back. Tell him that if he can go a full day without misbehaving, he gets one toy back (your pick). But if he has to go into time out, he doesn't get a toy back, and he loses one too.

I hope this will help you turn him around.

Dawn

I think he's enjoying the attention, even when it's negative attention. Try to ignore little things and quietly put him in time out with out a conversation. Say "the rule is be nice to brother" (try to keep it very short and have 2 or 3 statements that encompass almost everything (Dont break things, Be nice, Listen to Mom) and put him in time out NO MORE conversation. 1,2,3 Magic does not recommend " Next time this will happen.... " He knows not to pour water on brother's head, if you say NOTHING and put him in time out he will know why he is time out. No explanation or warning is needed. Remember he isnt thinking logically like a little adult. Dont try to explain and reason with him at this age. Keep rules simple. Keep scolding and explaining for when he is older. Now shower him with attention when he's not being bad. What can you do for positive attention? for rewarding good behavior? sticker charts, checklists, brag about him to people that call.... Start the day with 15-20 minutes one on one time before you expect him to entertain himself, This is all about getting your attention

Another vote for the Love and Logic series.

We personally did the happy, positive, loving home with lots of positive reinforcement, choices, respect and praise, (but no rewards or gushing over expected behavior past super tiny baby/toddler age) and then of course, the calm but firm swat on the butt when a clear and understood warning was intentionally ignored, or something serious was done. Once your child can count on it, they'll usually choose to avoid it. You have to be consistent, but not angry. You can't sometimes ignore, sometimes do time out, sometimes take a toy away, sometimes a logical consequence, sometimes a swat...your child will gamble for the times nothing too serious happens. You need to pick the firmest thing that works for your child, do it right away, build on it if you need to (add time out AFTER discipline etc) every time, and cut out all the escalations and power trips. This book is also great, Back to Basics Discipline by Janet Campbell Matson. My son was super spirited (still is but in a good way now). He needed plenty of discipline between ages 1 and 3, but now at almost four, he is the sweetest kid on earth with awesome self control and conscience. His discipline is very rare. My TOUGHEST child, is now 2 1/2, she's in the thick of discipline still, but leagues better than she was this time last year and totally doesn't do major no nos like tantrums and stuff we clamped down on hard.

Lots of kids don't care about time outs and removals and positive incentives, and practical results to wrong choices (going out without your coat if you refuse to put it on) type things are also lost on some spirited kids, since the offenses and reactions are always changing, and they're still getting their way in the moment. Dont' give up. Think about it, if you take away a toy, where does that leave him? With all of his other toys in a comfy house, why would that leave him scared straight? :) Same with time out, my kids wouldn't have cared about sitting somewhere "different" if they did something seriously wrong. He's presenting a challenge you can rise to :) If you haven't already, step it up!

If by "nothing works" you mean he just keeps doing those annoying things, then nothing is going to work either. He is 2.5 years old and testing the limits of his power is his thing right now. Your 4-year-old spoiled you (like my eldest daughter did). Stay consistant and things will get better as he grows. Our youngest, now 11, was a true terror at that age, taking her lumps (time outs, no spanking) with equinimity. She is now a well-behaved joy to have around.

I give 2 verbal warnings/re-direction. If that doesn't work they get a spanking. I rarely have to get to that spanking because my child(ren) KNOW I will follow thru with it.

Looks like verbal and passive means of discipline do not deter his behavior at all and it's time to step it up. I am not saying beat your child, but a spanking here and there with consistency I think will definitely have him change his behavior.

Is their dad involved in the discipline? My husband is more of the disciplinarian in our house, and sometimes I resort to "What would daddy think of this?" Not necessarily proud of this tactic, as it makes me look like the "weaker" parent (and they should listen to me too, not just dad)... but it works! Good luck. :-)

C.,
he's too young for discipline.

see my other replies to posts on this - unfortunately, I'm busy practicing what I was talking about - simply repeating over and over what I WANT him to do, not what I don't want him to do..

the long and short of it is: YOU know what the word 'don't' means. He can't process 'don't' in a sentence and make it function as a negative equating to 'don't do this or you're going to get a really negative consequence.

You can see it because you've repeated yourself umpteen times.

he can't see it because a) he lives in the moment. B) he has very little memory for new things that are intangible. because it isn't something he can 'touch' with his hands, he really is at a loss for how to process it 'correctly'

but each and every time you say 'don't dump water on your brother's head' all he hears is the 'dump water on your brother's head'. So really, you can't blame the little guy for just following instructions...

and as far as consequences, you're taking away ONE toy. out of HOW MANY? Ummm.....

...and then the come back? It's just a complicated game of attention....seeking...mastering....question is... who is winning?

go back to the 1 year old idea (and I still do this for my 4.25 year old!) of repeating what you want, gently leading him away from dangerous situations, intervening between siblings by using your body not your words.

good luck, read up, and get on track with the little guy!
M.

PS: and my little guy just discovered that he knows how to break into child-proof bottles just like his older brother. SMILES!