Follow up Question - Appropriate Punishment for Hitting

Okay...you don't believe in spanking....but one good one she would remember....and you could save all that breath you waste by gently telling her over and over the same thing. By her doing what she did to you yesterday goes to show...gently talking and redirecting is in no way being effective. Good luck.

I do not see how punishing her is going to prevent this from happening again. What will prevent it from happening again is setting her up for success and giving her the tools she needs to cope. So - you have already said she was sleep deprived - you know how to fix that. Now you need to talk with her about what she will do next time INSTEAD of hitting - that could be walking away, counting, stamping her feet - ASK her what she proposes.

If you took away all my toys because I did something yesterday - would I 1) not get frustrated and act out next time I am in the same situation or b) would I be angry and mad and completely lose focus on the situation that happened YESTERDAY (essentially a lifetime in the world of a 4 year old)? Now - pretend to be 4 and answer the same question.

My son is 6, I have NEVER punished him or used consequences or time outs and he has never had a 'tantrum'. Nor do we do 'rewards'. Yes he has gotten mad or sad or frustrated but has never thrown a tantrum. So the parents who state 'well I punish/hit/deprive into submission' and that WORKS - sorry - just not convinced.

We punish kids because we believe it is 'fair' and it was done to us. Not because it is effective - there is plenty of research that shows that on top of all the other negatives - it JUST DOESN'T WORK.

I agree with you 100% on not hitting a hitter. All it does is reinforce the bad behavior.

I didn't read yesterday's Q & A, but I am kind of shocked that 1 response below is that a parent thinks repetition with words is "a waste of breath". Children and especially young children need repetition, they need consistent rules and consequences, but they need to understand the "why" and that takes time and patience. Even if a child knows right from wrong, they are like us in that sometimes due to exhaustion or frustration they overreact. It is our responsibility to give them time and space to calm down and then to discuss how they can respond better next time. Teaching kids to put words to their emotions is critical at this age. And teaching them to recognize when they are starting to feel upset and how to choose a better response is the next step.

I agree with you regarding what you did for a consequence AND in not spanking. Spanking to me is ignorant. Yes, it takes more time to use other methods to teach our children to control their own behavior, but like you, I think that our kids are worth the time and effort that other approaches require. Parenting isn't an exercise in expedience. And I agree with you that time out is to calm down. Sometimes for a child, the removal from a group that time out requires is enough to stop the behavior but it's not a "punishment" per se.

For most behavior, natural consequences work best. If you hit, you are going to spend time by yourself until you can control your behavior around other people, and that time won't be fun (hence taking away a favorite toy). Makes sense to me.

If a behavior is a recurring problem, then a positive discipline approach works best by rewarding the behavior you want to encourage. For example, my younger boys are very aggressive to each other, both in words and actions, even when they're not angry with each other. We divide the day into parts (morning, afternoon and evening). If they have a day part with no aggression, or need only a quick warning to prevent aggressive behavior, they get a marble. If they need more than one warning, they don't get a marble. If they act aggressively, they lose a marble. For an all out brawl, they would lose several or all marbles. When they get 10 marbles, they get a small reward (like going to the pool at the gym with us or picking out what we have for dinner on take-out night). The idea is that with a few weeks of intense attention to one undesired behavior, you should be able to snuff out the behavior and then if it crops back up again, you can re-start the marble jar.

Today (and every day) catch her when she has a good response to something. Like, she is pretending to play with something or someone, and you say "it's time to go to the store" and she says goodbye to her pretend friend and goes and puts her shoes on. At that moment, get down on her level, look right in her eyes and say "Mommy is so proud of you. You obeyed right away and look at how calm we both are. Good job!!!" and give her a hug. Or if she drops her cookie and doesn't pitch a fit, get right in her face and smile and hug her. Keep rewarding appropriate behavior with positive reinforcement (not toys or candy, but hugs and eye-to-eye contact and smiles) and verbally point out how she responded ("I know you felt angry, but you didn't hit anything or hurt anyone. It's ok to feel angry and go cry on your bed"). I think that's the best way to deal with it now. Reinforced and rewarded behavior will increase, ignored behavior will decrease.

Only thing I think I would have done a step further was an official time out after she pulled your hair. You say you walked away, but what I would have done was picked her up put her in a corner and put a timer on, then walked away. This would make it official and allow her time to reflect on her behavior.

All in all, I think you did good. My 4 year old is going through a kicking phase when she gets mad at me, sometimes. Not a hard kick but a soft kick....I'm working on that myself. Must be the age! (Oh and my 4 year old ADORES her ponies too!)

Not knowing what caused the melt down I can't give you anything beyond an example. So say she was attention seeking, don't give her attention. I believe she pulled your hair, just calmly remove her hand from your hair, set her down and walk away.

I am not an expert but I have raised four kids, if you take away what is motivating the behavior they stop. Since it is targeted it tends to work quickly. The only time I have found it drags on is the toddler, I want, temper tantrum. That one took about a month. :(

Time outs and spankings were the effective form of discipline in my home. My children have never hit me or my SO. They are great children who hardly ever had/have tantrums.

I personally don't see how taking away a toy you are teaching her that she did something terribly wrong. If she were at school and did that to a teacher or classmate she would be suspended or maybe even expelled.

How do you think a time out won't do any good? That is a punishment! It wouldn't be one of those short 4 minute timeouts either, I would leave her there for at least 30 minutes to an hour. That way next time she gets upset she'll think twice before hitting. It would go something like this: "Honey, you have to sit on your bed for X amount of time because you did something very naughty. No, you may not play with ANY of your toys because you are being punished."

That's how I would have handled that situation. Afterward I would have explained that what she did was wrong and unacceptable and disrespectful and won't be tolerated. Then I would hug and kiss her and drop it.

I hope you figure out an effective form of discipline soon because you don't want her getting past this age without leaving this behavior behind.

Best wishes.

This happened yesterday.
You already punished her and reprimanded her.
Why.... are you still looking for ideas about how to punish her? Still.
Is it because of Husband?
What did he do?

She is 4.
You already punished her. And still are- because she got her favorite toy and friends taken away from her.
or is the punishment going to be 1 new punishment everyday for 1 week, as it is thought of?
I am wondering why this is being dragged out and on and on and on?

You know, the best gauge of a punishment is how a child reacts. If your daughter was clearly miserable at the loss of playtime and a pony, then that's the right punishment for her. It sounds like you're doing fine.

That said, with my son, what works well is for me to give myself a time-out. I'll say, in this super-sad voice, "The way you spoke to me just now made me mad and sad. So I think I need a little time away from you. I'm going up to my room, and when I feel better I'll come out." This is far more effective than any loss of toys with him, and my hope is that it's teaching him to consider the feelings of others first.

Question ~ If we could teach parents a way to teach their children without spanking, would they be willing to learn?

Anyway.. Discipline must be given or discussed at the time of the offense. Not a day later.

Never, never give into a tantrum. Whatever it is they wanted is a "no, because you threw the tantrum. "

Being so upset to hit pull hair? Time out. Meaning at that moment and reinforced until it is completed and then a CALM conversation about what the heck was going on.

Have the child tell you in their words what the problem was.. Then you tell them why they were in time out and what other punishment may be appropriate. Have the child repeat, why they were made to sit in time out and now would have to "clean up the mess" "Apologize", "Turn the TV off for the rest of the day" Not play outside with friends for 2 hours.. whatever they needed to do.

Hang in there. 4 is a freakish time for children.. They do not know what they want.. and then they do not always have the complete verbal skills and impulse control.

Your consequence got her attention. I think that losing the ability to play with favorite things for hurting someone is an appropriate consequence. I also think that time out - anywhere - is good for this sort of thing because it breaks the behavior. They are not able to touch you. They need to calm down.

I said yesterday that this is now two-fold. You give a consequence for the first action and then you work on the underlying issue or behavior pattern. If you want your child to sit in a restaurant, you teach them how to sit and enjoy a meal. Teach her how to handle these times and find out what triggers her with her father but not with you.

We have been having some new discipline issues with our three year old and have created a rewards chart that actually has been really great.

Great for him because it keeps him motivated and proud and reminded etc.
It kind of takes care of the discipline issue on its own because A) NOT getting to put a sticker on the chart BECOMES the punishment, and B) you don't have to punish as often because they're motivated to use the chart.

Great for us because it reminds us to keep up on the POSITIVE side of discipline vs. negative. To punish after something has already happened is SO MUCH harder. If you CONSTANTLY keep cheering their good behavior on, you will see a difference. Sometimes it feels excessive to give a kiss or a high five for every little cooperative/good thing they do or bad thing they choose not to do, but it really keeps them on the good behavior end of the spectrum.

With tantrums, it may be a little trickier since they are so impulsive, but I think if she's motivated and if you have the "stop to think before acting" talk, it could work. Be very specific about what the chart is about before you start using it so it's clear to her how she will earn stickers. You probably will have to be a little more conciencious about rewarding for missed tantrums... like maybe if you see a situation where she had the potential to be upset or even whine about something and wasn't/didn't, give a sticker. May have to be more often/overly generous in the beginning so she gets the picture.

Also, we very liberally us the chart as reminders - i.e. "do you think you will get a sticker on your chart if to throw that toy at my face?" It works! You could use the same reminders at the beginning of tantrums or things you might know are triggers.

You can research an age/personality appropriate system for your child and maybe even tantrum specific tips. I found lots of stuff online, including Dr Sears' site. We use a simple but cute chart I found online and just printed it for free. (You can make them too!) It has the numbers 1 - 10 and he gets to put a sticker on a number when he has been a good boy. When he gets to 10 he gets a special surprise. (In the beginning you can introduce a smaller reward halfway through if you think she needs it.) It can be a toy, outing/activity, favorite food.... doesn't have to be object based. You can even give them a choice of things if you want to empower them even more. He usually gets 1-2 stickers on his chart per day. Rewards charts need to be age appropriate and the younger they are the more often they need a star so they can see they are moving up the chart - esp. in the beginning. That said, he often get as much pride by our constant high-fives and kisses for his good behavior. With time I think they become a little less reliant on the chart and the good behavior just comes more naturally. Then you can change the "goal" of the chart to be specific to something else she may need to work on.

You might try to really 'set the stage' for her. Talk about it beforehand, let her help design it, pick the stickers etc... get her really excited so she'll take a lot of pride in it. You can even save the completed charts for her to look at and show friends and family and/or take photos of her enjoying her "surprise" and put it next to the next chart for extra motivation. Right now we have two different designs. I may add more designs since he gets such a big kick out of that alone, it seems like a great way to keep him motivated.

Also, at this age most people say to never take away stickers that they've earned because it sends the wrong message and gets back to the negative end of the spectrum. We have done it only one time when he was being absolutely nuts, but in hindsight I feel like it was an impulse move on my part and not appropriate/helpful.

Sorry so long-winded! ;) We just started and are seeing good results so it's pretty exciting. Mainly for me, it's a great way to keep us parents in the habit of using positive reinforcement to avoid the bad behavior all together.

It seems to me you doled out an appropriate consequence. I agree that spanking is not effective. Yes, I have spanked, and it does not stop the behavior. There is no method of discipline that will be work immediately, the first time, and stop all future repetitions of the undesireable behavior. Kids your daugher's age misbehave because they have a lack of impulse control, not because they don't know the difference between right and wrong. The only thing that does work to curb misbehavior is to consistently impose a consequence that gets your child's attention. You know what works for your daughter (the ponies or dolls), and by her reaction yesterday, it seems to be effective.

You're right about time-outs.

There's a couple of things I might do differently. First, I assign a chore for misbehavior, on top of losing privileges. I make it a chore that my child does not like anyway. Usually by the end of the chore, they have calmed down and have a much better attitude. The power of work is amazing! Also, instead of constantly repeating yourself, have her say why she has lost her privilege. When she asks for her ponies, you ask her in return "Why can't you play with your ponies today?" This should help curb the number of discussions, and help her internalize the lesson.

Best wishes!

ETA: I just went back and read the original post. Wow. I don't think it's appropriate to retroactively impose a consequence now, but in case there's a next time (I hope not!) you definitely need to come down harder. She should NOT have had an opportunity to gain back playtime after school for apologizing. She should have apologized AND had the consequence. Then, I would have heaped on more loss of privileges and more chores for each offense thereafter. And after she pretended to be sorry and give you a hug, she pulled your hair?!? Oh no! She should have gone into her room until your husband got home, and then the two of you could have decided together on what her punishment should be. I don't mean a time-out, I mean she should not have had further opportunity to hurt you. I'm glad that she seems to be sincerely sorry now though. Stick to the consequence, and she doesn't get to earn back her toys early.

What's her "currency"? ie: What's the thing that would be punishment MOST in her opinion? Taking away dolls and ponies sounds like it's it. Perhaps she earns one back each day that she shows appropriate behavior, so it takes longer for her to get them back, and it's a teachable week of "bad behavior you lose things, good behavior it takes a while to earn those things back."

IN our house, for our 4 yr old might get toys taken away, PLUS if you wanted to add more, we would probably say "no movies" or "no sweets" or "no something-thats-a-favorite-but-wont-take-away-from-his-well-being." For my son, "no books at bedtime" would be DEVASTATING. But IMO, taking away a book at night is not healthy - 4 yr olds NEED books! I could tell my 4 yr old "No watermelon" and he'd also be devastated! And watermelon is healthy for him, so why would I take that away? If you give your daughter an additional punishment, either lose something you don't want her having anyways (sweets), or give her something undesirable to do (help you scrub toilets, be your assistant in the weed pulling or trash recycling).

I had just read yesterdays post and commented when you asked this question. Time outs are for the child to calm down and think about what they’ve done, discouraging inappropriate behavior. If you are not ok with “spanking” your child what method are you using other then taking away toys to reinforce discipline? Each person’s parenting style is different (even between couples) based on how they were raised you just have to figure out what works for your child. Hitting is not ok, therefore the one time my middle child tried this I removed myself and ignored her until she apologized on her own. At this age they know its wrong.

I think she should be grounded. Sent to her room each day after school for the entire evening.

I know that sounds harsh because she is only 4, but again if you don't let her know in no uncertain terms that raising her hand to you is absolutely FORBIDDEN, she will do it again and again and it won't be pretty when she's 13 and she's slapping her mother. In fact, it could be downright humiliating if not painful!

By the way, I would have suggested spanking but apparently you are not up for that. We were spanked as children and yet none of us have ever been in a fight or otherwise hit other people. We didn't see it as "hitting"; we knew it was a punishment. It never tempted me to hit anyone else and especially not my mother!

I know that alot of people believe that spanking begets hitting, but there have been numerous posts on this website about children hitting their parents and I have yet to see one posted by a parent who spanks. Spanked children know better than to raise their hand to their parent!