4 Year Old Yelling at Me :/

Take charge and tell her she is not to talk to you that way and then discipline the way you choose quickly. She'll catch on fast. I would guess her step dad doesn't put up with it so that's why she respects him when he's there more. She'll love you still but you are the mom and she's the child.

The Love and Logic style of parenting is wonderful and compassionate. I can honestly say I use it 90% of the time. But sometimes it is not enough to curb very bad behavior. Same with the "Talk So Kids Will Listen..." approach. its GREAT, for older kids, and most for of the time, but it will not stop these outbursts in a four year old. Nor is she old enough for adult techniques to deal with frustration. She's still very young, and will learn self control from clear, concise, firm rules which will eventually become natural to her. Ignoring her when she gets very ugly with you is condoning it. It doesn't matter WHY she's behaving that way (unless she's got a medical disorder which you say she doesn't) it only matters if it is allowed or not. If she is not allowed to speak to you that way, there has to be a FIRM and immediate consequence for it so your warning the next time suffices, and the rule sticks for future episodes to be prevented.

Once the rule sticks through firm discipline, you can go back to loving logic, positive reinforcement, and respectful talking. I've got three kids who know they cannot talk that way to me-including one who was born with a TEMPER-talk about flipping a SWITCH-doesn't matter. She is not allowed to lash out at me. Period. A GREAT book for your daughter's age is Back to Basics Discipline by Janet Campbell Matson. It's much firmer than what you're doing, but you will barely need discipline once your daughter is behaving well.

People think my kids are just naturally sweet and easy and we all just co-exist gracefully and respectfully with quiet requests on my part: There was plenty of behind the scenes discipline that got us to this point where I can take them anywhere and count on their good behavior and maturity. We NOW do the positivity thing all the time, lots of choices given, logical consequences, etc....but only because things were firmly nipped first, and good habits were set.

J., I'd put her in her room before talking about the issue with her. You need to change things up because what you are doing isn't working.

Give her a heads-up. Tell her that she has to learn to stop yelling at you when she doesn't get what she wants. Her reason for wanting what she wants doesn't matter - she cannot yell. NOBODY gets what they want all the time, and she has to learn that. Tell her that the next time she starts yelling, she is in her room for 15 minutes and cannot come out until that 15 minutes is up. Show her 15 minutes on the clock. Tell her if she continues to yell or cry in her room, you will add more time on the clock.

Tell her that it's time for her to act like a big girl and stop this yelling. Then make it stick.

Forget the idea that she might be listening to you say something meaningful. She isn't interested in what is meaningful. She is trying to get her way and hoping that with each moment of screaming that you will finally cave in. Remove the audience, remove the possibility of negotiation, and she will finally have a REASON to hold her anger in check. She doesn't have a reason to now - you are her audience and she has ALL the time in the world to badger you.

I really mean that too.

Dawn

It's totally normal, she trusts you (not for long though if you follow the advice of ignoring her or putting her 'away' somewhere) you are the safest person in her life and she is letting you know she needs help with some big feelings - you have the opportunity to make a connection and listen to her and allow her to feel secure. it's sounds like her angry feelings are coming from the fact her step dad is away and she has already experienced the great loss of her biological father and that is a major thing for a child (I know I still have big feelings from it and I tested my mom the most but we are very close now and I talk to her about everything because I can trust her). Do you want her to stop communicating her feelings? Giving her 'consequences' for sharing her feelings with you will shut her down and make her withdrawn, she may be quiet and complient but at what cost? Where do you think those feelings will go? They will get internalised and eventually come up. Listen to your instinct what feels right to you? Following the 'discipline' method you might get immediate compliance but your only thinking about yourself and what others think. Those wonderfully complient children get praised early on but history shows they are the ones who end up with the issues because they never had a chance to feel completely safe and able to share their thoughts or feelings - the message is I don't care that your upset just be quiet. Think about if you were upset and crying and your husband/friend/mother ignored you, walked away etc now add to that the fact your 4 and haven't even learnt how to communicate entirely. Listen to her, hold her and ride out that 'tantrum' and you will be highly rewarded when she curls in your lap after getting her feelings out and feels loved, listened to and connected to the person who stayed with her and helped her through a hard time. Watch her go off to play after the only thing is she will trust you enough after to share more and more feelIngs eventually at an appropriate age and as she grows her communication skills will get better and instead of tantrums she will clearly communicate and you will have the most amazing relationship because she will trust you enough to tell you anything. It's not for everyone as most people want instant gratification but if you want further info about hands on parenting you could check out www.handinhand.org. All the best.

If she is acting like she's not getting enough sleep, she probably isn't. Every time she yells and gets out of hand, look at her calmly and "you seem tired, it's time for a nap" and put her down for quiet time. She will either fall asleep or start connecting that yelling will get her put down for nap time. It will also remove her from the situation that was causing the uproar to begin with.

It is fairly normal, she is redefining pecking order while dad is away, and she may not sleep as well when he is gone.

I don't recall my children ever yelling at me like you describe, certainly not at 4. I mean.. there may have been AN occasion here or there over the course of YEARS where my son "lost it" and was so thoroughly frustrated that he yelled, but as a general day-to-day frustration outlet? No.
It would not have been tolerated if he had. That is not how you talk to Mommy or Daddy.
It is disrespectful. And that is something you might want to make your daughter aware of. It isn't JUST about natural consequences... she is behaving inappropriately to you, the authority figure, and she needs to know that it is not acceptable. Not "it hurts my feelings when you do that", but that it is UNACCEPTABLE for her to talk to you (yell like that at you) that way.
I see that you are telling her that it is disrespectful, but she doesn't get what you mean, apparently. It doesn't just mean that she won't get what she wants, or that you won't sing anymore. It means she is challenging your authority. So you need to address that part of it.
Send her to her room until she can apologize for it, and then ask nicely if she wants you to do something for her.

I can't say whether there is anything more to it than a phase or not, because my own kids didn't go through this with any noticeable pattern. It was a once in a blue moon thing.. and it wasn't often repeated.

You mention your husband being a positive presence, what exactly does he do differently than you? Does he give in to what she demands more easily? or does he catch her before she loses it and resorts to yelling? Is he faster or more concrete in his reaction to it? What is so different that you think the absence of his behavior is the causative agent here, rather than just her being moody because someone is missing?

I just have to say, I could have written this post. I've actually posted about it on mamapedia before too (recently, actually) so if you want to look at the answers I received, feel free to hop on my page and take a look.

I think this is pretty normal four-year-old behavior. My daughter can be like a light switch too. Totally mercurial sometimes. We do a lot of time outs just so she has some time to calm down. Her feelings are so big right now that she just has to have some time away to settle and then she gets back to her sweet self. I do notice that if she has too many sweets, it's worse. If she's tired, watches too much TV, or doesn't have enough one on one time with me, it gets worse. So, on the days where she's particularly bad, I manage her with time outs, I make sure to connect with her, be silly, dance, joke, read, whatever it is we're doing that day, and if she gets completely out of hand, I give her plenty of warnings and then I take sweets away from her for a whole day. She has a sweet tooth that could conquer Japan, so this is useful for us.

It sounds like for both of our daughters, the opportunity to calm down is the best medicine. I don't tolerate disrespect well, and when she loses her temper, that's what usually happens. So, I try to get a sense of when her temperature is rising and try to calm her down before that happens.

I hope this helps. If nothing else, know that I'm there with you and I don't think there's anything wrong with our daughters. They don't call this age the "effin fours" for nothing.

;) Hilary

I am not a parent that has EVER followed the 'ignoring it' type of parenting. Period.

Natural consequences is for her to hear you tell her "NO, you do NOT talk to me like that". Period.

Tips to help her manage her anger is to pay attention to her and cut her off before it gets to that stage but you say that she goes from A-Z easily...so I am not sure? Therapy maybe...if you can not figure it out yourself maybe you need outside help? Something needs to be done or you are going to have a serious problem later on down the line if you do not nip this in the bud now!

Do I think it's normal behavior to have your 4y/o yell at you? No, I do not.

Mom/Auntie to 6 boys and 1 girl... Ages 21-4

Yes, this is normal behavior. She is not yelling at you because you are an available audience. She is yelling at you because she lacks better tools to express her frustrations and get what she needs in an acceptable (to you) way. When she has better tools, she will use them. Continue to model appropriate ways you deal with frustration (using words, acceptable physical expressions, deep breathing, etc).

Also - you cannot pick 'natural consequence'. Natural consequence happen whether or not you are involved. You can pick 'logical consequences' if you follow that method of parenting. In my mind they are equivalent to punishment and only engender anger, not learning and maturation.

Laura Markham has a great blog on parenting issues from a positive parenting perspective. http://www.ahaparenting.com/

Also - if she is acting like she is not getting enough sleep - try putting her to be a little earlier or getting her up a little later in the morning. The toddler basics (enough sleep, avoiding hunger, warning before transitions) still apply at this age.

When our son was 5 he started speaking very rudely to us when he didn't get his way. We sat him down and told him the rule is he is not to speak rudely. He can speak his feelings but he must do so in a respectful way. We gave him examples. We told him if he speaks rudely he gets an immediate consequence. Then we followed through and were giving him consequences and dealing with him completely freaking out for a while. But he learned. The other thing we did was to praise him like crazy when he got it right. So, if it were me I would tell her the no yelling rule and start cracking down. Think of a consequence that she will really really hate so it means more. As for anger management - that is such a hard one. She is only 4. Our son really matured a lot in 2nd grade. Just keep trying to help her with that and know that she will mature out of some of it too. Good luck!

Has she witnessed other people yelling a lot?
IS she getting enough sleep?
Have you told her she can say "I'm so mad" I'm feeling angry" etc?
Tell her big girls use their words in big girl voices.
keep modeling for her saying "I'm really angry that truck pulled in front of my car! That makes me feel angry" "I'm so frustrated that --- broke, I feel like punching a pillow, I'm so frustrated. " Tell her when you're upset and ask her for ideas to make you feel better.
When she screams and yells, Walk away, no audience! no discussion, say I'm walking away, talk to you when you talk like a four yr old.
After she calms down -lot's of attention, she probably feels bad for having the meltdown and needs to be reminded you love her unconditionally!
"I'm so glad you are calm now do you want to sit on my lap for a minute?"

I think this sounds pretty normal. They are at an emotional age and although I kinda thought tantrums would be over by now, they're not!! My daughter just turned 5 and she can be like this. I think she definitely went through this phase during 4. 5 is better, but man we still have our days!

I think you should just keep up with L&L and it will be okay. I don't necessarily think taking away toys is the right response unless of course she was using a toy incorrectly or threw it at your or something.

I'd walk away from it. Stop talking to her so calmly - you are helping her to voice her feelings but it's not working. She is getting plenty of attention from you, even negative attention. Deprive her of attention. Separate yourself from her, or her from you. She may well be tired and may need quiet time - that's fine. You cannot reason with a child of this age by spending an inordinate amount of time with her - that's giving her unacceptable yelling a type of validation. I think you can lose the term "disrespectful" - it's more that it's unacceptable. Doesn't matter why it's not allowed - it's just not allowed. She'll learn very quickly.

Taking a toy away doesn't work if that is not what she wants at the moment of screaming. She still probably has a million toys, so losing one is not a big deal - which is why it's not working for you. A consequence is being alone. Sometimes kids just need time alone to pull themselves together. But it also means that they are not near the person they are yelling at. Do you think for one second that this is allowed in school? No. And the kids know it because consequences are immediate and related to the behavior.

I also think it COULD be partly related to her daddy being gone - could be she's afraid of you leaving too (and logically "knowing" that someone will be back in a few days is not enough for a kid this age) - but taking it out on you is not acceptable.