4-Year-Old Won't Obey

Hi K.,
What are the consequences to not obeying? Telling a preschooler that we're not going to Disneyland today because you haven't been listening very well is not the immediate consequence that he needs. If he touches the camera or won't take his toy out of the dining room, do you immediately trot him to the timeout chair and have him face the wall? If he runs ahead on the street, do you go right home and put him in timeout? If he's running ahead, then why does he have the privilege of walking unrestrained? A camera should not be left out where 4 and 2 year olds can get at them. I think a combination of allowing fewer situations for misbehavior and immediate consequences for disobedience would be the best tactic. You haven't really given enough info for us to know what you are doing to discipline. I'm a fan of immediate consequences with no explanations. I wouldn't say, "You are going to timeout because you didn't put down the camera when I told you to, " that just invites argument or whining or begging or excuses. Don't fall into that trap.

I never experienced the terrible two's, had no idea what anyone was talking about. Three was great. Then Holey Moley the 4's hit and I thought I woke up with a whole 'nother kid! I learned a lot about myself that year. Mostly that I have more patience than I ever thought and that my temper was far worse than I thought. First I found a way to laugh - to make it all silly, reminding myself that "this too shall pass". Then I got a book that almost 10 years later is still the only one I feel I ever really needed on the shelf. It's called Positive Discipline. It takes what you already know and makes it work. You know what you're supposed to do, you just need a coach.(I almost typed couch, but that would have been the truth too, right?). Good Luck.

I just have to point out that K. M NEVER said she was using Disneyland as a carrot to hold over them or a punishment for not behaving. Read the post. She is thinking "I'll never be able to take these kids anywhere!" K., I was struck by the way you are giving these commands a lot and he is ignoring then a lot. Give less commands. Lock the dining room if you can so that is one less thing to argue about. Change the way you talk to him. Challenge him. I bet you can't get in the car seat before I count to 20, here I go 1, 2,3 oooh brothers gonna make it 4, 5, I'm gonna beat you 6.7.8 (make sure he Always always wins! slow your counting if he you need to the idea is not to make him rush just to cooperate. My son loved playing beat the timer to get on his pajamas. who's gonna be first me getting brothers shoes on or you getting your shoes on? I agree with the choices I give choices ALL the time, Wyatt do you want to hold my hand (or hold onto the stroller) or walk right right next to me? Do you want to walk right next to me or get in the stroller? Wyatt do you want to brush your teeth with the blue toothbrush or the red? I never said Go put on your pajamas (or go brush teeth) I just gave him the two choices do you want to wear the green pajamas or the yellow? My favorite books are Happiest Toddler on the Block and 1,2,3, Magic. Hope they can help so some day you can take them places and have more fun!

I think we all go through this!
At this age, I gave warnings with time limits. For example "You have until I get to 0 to get into your carseat or you will loose ____. 5 ..4..3..2..1..0" I don't know where I got the idea to count backwards but they learn it pretty quick, and once they do I can start anywhere and they know exactly how much time they have (or don't have!). There's no delays like 3 1/2 or whatever. If they don't do it, they get the consequence. This works well when you can't let go of the younger child to chase after them ("walk next to me or we will have to go home right now" or appropriate consequence then start counting) or if you're up to your elbows in bleach water. But in order for it to work, you have to be really consistent. Don't suggest a consequence you're not willing to enforce. It does take some time to get him used to the fact that you're not going to budge (and there will always be a certain amount of pushing limits, that's normal) but in the long run, he'll understand that you mean business and that it's better to cooperate. And, if you start and keep it up with the oldest, it's easier to continue with the younger ones.

I'll add just a bit. You have good answers already.

It's part of a four-year-old's job description to test the boundaries. So let him know the consequences for disobedience in this and that matter, and make sure those consequences happen!

In my opinion, that latter clause is the hardest part. Consequences shouldn't be harsh, but they need to be consistent and involve learning a bit of self-control. You and your husband have to decide reasonable consequences in advance... and remember what they are.

In addition, consequences can play havoc with mama's schedule - and mama's feelings!

But kids seem to like the justice of knowing consequences in advance and seeing that they do happen. If they suffer consequences, it's not because of THEM... it's because of breaking the rule. That's fair. But they will test you (over and over and over) to see if you keep to what you say or if you don't really mean it.

If Wyatt is not to touch his daddy's camera, you can say, "Wyatt, look at me - what is the rule about Daddy's camera?" If he doesn't know (or says he doesn't), go over it with him, and make him repeat the rule a few times. Do it with good humor; you're not dealing with this because you're mad! If he decides to touch the camera anyhow, well, you both know the consequences. Do that.

If Wyatt has already been told to stay out of the dining room and goes on in, he's testing you. Measure up to the test - not in anger, but in consequential response.

A little reward for obeying is OK, too, once in a while... but make sure it's a reward, not a bribe ("If you mind me I'll get you a present") or an extortion payment. A savvy kid who says, "I'll get in the car if you'll buy me a treat at the store" is out of line. Any kind of occasional reward has to be YOUR idea... and you need to be fair about that, too. (So don't do it often!)

Sorry - that was more than just a bit. End of lecture.

Consequences or redirection must be immediate to work – bleach water or no bleach water. When my daughter would test or ignore after the first request, I would immediately, physically but gently, guide or lead her to complete my request. This will certainly be complicated by having two kids to interact with, but it's the shortest route to consistent compliance, and therefore less work and time are needed in the long run.

Another thing I always did as a mom, and in my grandson's household everybody does this, is to make sure to say "Please" and use a respectful tone of voice. Not only are most children more likely to comply when they think their parents respect them (runs hand in hand with high expectations), but they also begin to automatically use polite phrases themselves. Parents can be shockingly rude to children (generally a playback of the tone they received from their own parents), and simply don't hear it because it meets their cultural expectations.

Kids also do well with having advance warning when transitions are coming up, and explanations about why you need them to do something. They don't live your daily routine, and have no idea at all that you climb an endless mountain of tasks every day. They won't gain that empathy for awhile yet, but can still make sense of the necessity of cooperation with a bit of explanation.

Not getting a trip to Disneyland is too far removed from the misbehavior for a child to actually "get" the connection. But if you train yourself to notice as many polite, helpful or cooperative things your children do, and remark on them approvingly, you'll probably find your kids tripping over themselves to do more things that please Mommy.

K., you left a lot unsaid. What happens when your requests are ignored?

Get the "Love and Logic" books. I think they will really help to guide you and you will see results quickly. Take the "love and logic" course if you are able. They are offered in most communities. Made a great difference in my life!

You've gotten some great suggestions. Also try Love and Logic - gives the kiddo choices as well as consequences.Choices sometimes work really well because it's better than just saying "NO" all the time. Like "Wyatt, daddy's camera isn't a toy; you can put it back on the table or give it to mommy.", etc.

Giving them a little control over their lives can go a long way - and it's control that doesn't matter to you. Like - "Wyatt, look at the bugs while I buckle in your brother, and then we need to get you in your seat" "Would you like to walk on Mommy's side or your brother's side?" to keep him walking with you, etc.

Punishment by taking away Disneyland means nothing. It's a nebulous punishment that has no connection with what's going on at the time the behavior is happening. He can't connect the two things. Time out, toys going away, not doing something he likes at that time or on that day, etc. It has to be immediate or close to it in order to be connected to the behavior.

Good luck!

If you're working on a discipline issue, it should get better in up to 3 days. If it doesn't improve, then you need to change your method or you're not being consistent. I'm terrible at being consistent but because I have so many kids and I homeschool, I've learned that I need to be or else lose my mind. =D Let them know what is expected of them and what the consequence will be if they don't mind. Then follow through with 100% consistency. Praise them when they obey and have fun with them all other times. Be fun and cheerful but stern when you need to be. Good luck!! Hang in there!!

I'm not sure what you do when they don't obey. If you are only using 'big' threats/rewards like Disneyland, you will never make progress. Kids at this age need imediate consequences for misbehavior. Time outs, loss of toys, loss of tv, leave the park, whatever.

The key is the consistancy. Use the same consequence for the same misbehavior every time. State the consequence in the intruction. 'Wyatt, put your dad's camera down right now, or you will sit on the mat.' If he hesitates at all, go to him, take the camera away and send him to time out (we used a mat). If he doesn't clean up when asked, those toys go away for at least 4 days (1 day per year of age).

May I ask why he isn't allowed in the dining room? We never had any place in the house that was off limits, just behavior in those rooms that was unacceptable. You can go in the dining room, but not get into the china cabinet, or on the table. My kids liked to play under the table like a fort and would hang blankets from the chairs to make it dark. They just needed to get all of their toys out of there when they were finished, and clean up the blankets. If not, then the toys went away and forts were off limits for the same amount of days.

You may have to let your big cleaning go for a week or so until they get on board. They will absolutely push back on the new rules, so be prepared. You will need to be very consistant and act imediately to set the new standard, but once they get it, you can expect better behavior. When my kids were this little, I kept big jobs like bleach cleaning, for when they were napping, or on the weekends/evenings when I had another adult around. A clean house is great, but it is way more important for the kids to learn to obey rules and have self control. That takes a lot of time and effort on the parent's part. When you feel like giving up, just think of what it will be like to have a 16 yr old and a 14 yr old that think they don't need to follow the rules. Good habits and bad habits begin now. You can do this.

Be brave and enjoy the adventure!

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I LOVE Amber's ideas about making things a game, but sometimes you're not in the mood or don't have time for fun. I used to grow very weary of trying to find the fun in everything, I'm sort of a wet blanket that way :). If you find yourself feeling that way too, give him choices that you find acceptable. This stage is about control and autonomy, so the more he has the sense of being in control of his own destiny, the better off you both are. Wyatt, you can go play in the living room or in your bedroom, which do you choose? Wyatt, stay there and wait for us or run back and join us... Wyatt, do you want to climb in your car seat yourself or shall I lift you in? This may not work every time either, but mixing in fun and choices will be more successful that always having to tell him to obey your orders.

I do exactly what Julia N and Sandy L do... I count backwards from 5, and I've already warned him that when he turns 5 (end of October), I won't be starting at 5 anymore. I just recently changed my tactics a little because I felt unfair yelling at him so much (which really isn't very much, but still...). When cleaning up toys, if he's having a challenging night, I'll say, "I'll bet I can put ___ away before you can put ____ away!! Ready? GO!" He LOVES it because he's very competitive! BUT I don't always let him win because I feel that's a valuable lesson as well.

I'm VERY consistent with my consequences, and 90% of the time, he hates the consequences enough to get his butt moving. Some would say I'm a very strict parent, but when it comes to safety, picking up around the house, and following directions in a reasonable amount of time, I expect certain things. I usually get desirable results without the tantrums and theatrics because both my kids (4.5 and 18mo) know what to expect.

I give a reasonable amount of time and warnings ("You better get moving," or "do I need to set the timer on the microwave?") before my countdown begins, and I always stop whatever I'm doing at the time when I get to about 3. Thank goodness my son is pretty good listener, so my daughter doesn't learn TOO many bad behaviors!! hehe

My niece was like that and my sister got Parenting the Strong-Willed Child by Forehand and Long when she was about 6. It worked amazingly well--enough that I figured out what she did and bought the book. Now I'm starting to use it with my two year old. I couldn't really do it justice by trying to tell you everything in it, but it is easy to read and really effective.

We have an almost 4 year old and we have had that problem off and on. He goes in stretches with his behavior. One thing that works is giving him choices. So for example........"Wyatt, walk on the sidewalk with your brother and me"..........he runs off..........you say "Wyatt you have 2 choices, you can either get on the sidewalk with us, or we can all turn around and go home". 99% of the time he should make the right choice. We have a very spirited child and this is one method that works quite a bit. Not all the time, but lots of the time. Our son likes to be in control and by giving him the choice, he feels like he is making his own decisions.
The dining room thing is similar to us with our computer room........say something like "Wyatt you have a choice you can either get out of dining room or take away what he is playing with or take away tv time, etc....if they make the "wrong" decision than use a time out.

Another thing that works is give a warning, then if behavior continues, do a time out without doing the choices. It is exhausting because I also have a 2 year old and he follows his brothers' behavior.
lastly, be consistent. When I let something go today, but then not tomorrow, they never know what to expect. I'm with you, I slack off because I'm in the middle of washing dishes, folding clothes, etc...so I let something go that I shouldn't. It is hard and sometimes I just yell, which gets everyone upset. It's a tough age with a 4 year old who wants to be independent and a 2 year old who follows all the behavior of the older one.
Good luck, parenting is not easy Some days I beg my husband to take me to work!

Back to Basics Discipline by Janet Campbell Matson. I have 3 under 5 and they would not dare do that. A little tough love goes a long way. We have a blast and I spend almost no time on discipline. Read the reviews on Amazon to see if it's in alignment with your views.

There are lots of good responses here. I have a four and three year old and what works for me is for me to have them repeat back what I asked them to do. For exaple if I asked them to get in the car and they are dwaddling I say, What did Mommy say?" They have to repeat my instruction to me. this almost always gets them to own it and do it.

Funny. I asked about tips to help me get my 4 year old daughter to listen a few weeks ago. On walks "Simon Says" is working wonders. She cannot get enought of it. Also, a lot of people recommended touching your child and getting them to look at you when you are asking them to to do something. Someone also recommended reading the book "How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk". I really like the book as it has a lot of good tips on communicating without barking orders. I like to read it before bed on a really bad day so I can think of how to better handle my child next time. Good luck!

I'm smiling because my boys are 4 1/2, almost 3, and 2 months. I think there is a piece in most toddler and preschool boys' brains that makes things short circuit when we want them to do something. For the most part I try to only push it when it is something really important (safety as you've pointed out with the sidewalk, or breaking something like the camera). I would try giving a secondary more positive direction as well, like "put down the camera and come help me with this--I can't do it alone," or "come get in your carseat and then tell me about the bug you saw." Kids do NOT hurry unless we are in hot pursuit--it took my 4 year old about 3 hours to NOT pick up his toys the other week, which is why one bag at a time the toys ended up in our garage. (He still thinks the garbage collector has them, but I told him they might find their way back in as he took better care of his other toys.)

They definitely listen worse in pairs, so you will just have to be prepared to be vigilant. They are quite young for Disneyland at this time, so you've got a lot of years before you need to worry about it.

Our house is also not as pretty (or clean) as I would like or used to keep it (that is an understatement of course) but it IS safe and for the most part they can't do too much damage except to each other or their things. I'm resigned to having a boy-proof home complete with doorknob covers, gates, outlet covers, duct tape reinforcements, and trying to only raise my voice and discipline over safety. It sounds more like your son is absorbed in what he does, somewhat single-minded, and very curious (camera?), all good traits that just need some more focus. Maybe on your next walk he could carry a small bug hut and collect things--if you engage him he might slow down and stay with you better.

Couldn't have said it better than Sandy L. She pretty much said everything I was going to! Hit the nail on the head!!

Check out Parenting with Love and Logic. It's got some good suggestions for this sort of thing.