Discipline for Strong Willed 3 Yr Old

You've had quite a few great responses and mine will unfortunatley be short because my daughter (once 3, now 5) is needing some of my time.
I recommend as another mom did "Parenting with Love and Logic." I think it works especially well with intelligent wilfull and manipulative children. It also can bring you closer to the child emotionally, which is more helpful than blind frustration or rage at their behavior.
Even now when I ask my daughter to put on her shoes and she replies "okay mommy" I catch my breath. It's like a miracle, but it does get better.

She is raising her own child in the way that she sees fit, and unless she asks for your input please do not give it. She needs supportive friends, not advice or criticism. She'll figure it out. Strong-willed three-year-olds are a challenge!

Consistency is the key. It doesn't have to be loud, it doesn't have to 'hurt' the child. It may be that her child has picked up on the fact that if she doesn't act like a discipline thing means anything to her (like the ice cream) that it won't be repeated. Very intelligent kids can become very manipulative kids if you aren't consistent. One warning, then the designated punishment. If she screams in her room for hours, then she screams in her room for hours. Our 3.5 year old is very smart, and very strong willed. She started down this road and I nipped it in the bud quickly. She acted like time outs (for us it's standing in the corner) were no big deal, but we kept it up. We talked to her about her behavior, why it is not acceptable, and what she has to do to make up for it. We emphasize consequences that are logical for the situation. For example -- the playground situation you mention above. The logical consequence is that her child has to come sit on the bench for X minutes and think about playing nicely. It doesn't matter who started it and obviously you cannot punish someone else's child like this, but her child CAN and SHOULD have a time out to think about the correct behavior before returning to play. It helped with my kids (who initially thought it was great that they could just come sit with Mom) to point out that we only had a set amount of time at the park, and so by behaving badly they were LOSING time that they could have been playing.
Consistency is the key to good parenting and she needs to set some ground rules and then be consistent with them (no more multiple warnings -- that doesn't happen in real life and we set our kids up to fail when we teach that).
Good luck to you in showing all this to your friend, and good luck to her!

I agree w/Lisa G., unless she specifically asks for your advice on this, stay out of it. I know it's hard to have friends who parent different but it's not your place to tell them how to parent unless they ask for help. Offering your parenting suggestions could lead to a rift in your friendship. You said you love her dearly....so is telling her how to parent her kids worth the potential loss of friendship? And honestly, this little girl sounds like any other 3 yr old child. Sounds like she parents similar to me. We have 2 outspoken, strong-willed boys (11 & 6.5) & like another mom said, yelling & threatening them does not always work. I talk to them about their poor behaviour, esp. out in public cuz I am not going to be THAT crazy mom screaming at her kids, & if the behaviour isn't stopped then they sit out or we leave. I have spanked but w/o much effect except me feeling horrible & I would never to something as old school as putting cider vinegar on their tongues. Tread lightly here, offer advice only if asked & be supportive.

This sounds like pretty normal 3 year old girl behavior. I had one - now she's five and fine. Punishing isn't an answer to everything. Taking away isn't always the answer. I think your friend has to be creative and try different things (put energy into it) and see what works to generally have cooperation. If the child is really independent and strong willed, then total cooperation isn't going to be possible, so don't punish for it. I think that the serious things are unkindness towards others, hitting, etc. Beyond that, it's preference, and the child has her opinion! Seriously, I thought I would lose my mind when mine was 3. I tried my best to have consequences that made sense, and I et some things go that weren't really all that impportant even though they felt like battles for me. And now she is WONDERFUL in kindergarten (5). Every day I am amazed. My main advice: choose your battles well, don't make the child your enemy, and keep a STRONG connection. If she is opening the garbage can to throw out the ice cream, we're maybe at the f you stage. Please tell your friend to re-connect, and stop telling her that she is too soft. Be consistent, not harsh. Good luck to you!

My thought is that maybe she is acting out because she is not getting enough attention and maybe instead of taking away something an offer of doing something with mom or dad would help? My daughter was like that to some extent.. and the most important thing for her was being with me.. so when in first grade she started acting up I told her I would not be able to help in her class if she continued acting that way and as I recall that did the trick : )

I am noticing that my 3 year old grandson is a little defiant.. when he doesn't want to do something he throws something or makes the spitting noise .. my son tells him to go on time out and that takes a bit but he will go and sulk and then is better after that.. every child is different and just because your friend is mild mannered doesn't mean she doesn't have it under control.. I had much the same views as her as my kids grew up.. they grew up just fine : )

Strong willed children don't usually respond to time outs or threats, most kids don't to threats. You have to be firm, consistent and let the child know the rules ahead of time and what to expect. A child that bold as to throw away the ice cream by lifting the lid of the trash is in need of discipline soon and I think spanking might get her attention. If opposed to that then decide what to use and be consistent at putting her in her room or just removing her from others. You need to let the child know you love them but not the actions though so sometimes even talking first with a child like that lets them know you care about them but just won't allow behavior like they are doing. They understand, she sounds very smart and able to get the idea. Maybe because there is no real control from the parents the child is begging for parents to care enough to discipline her and show they love her and want her to do the right thing. Whatever the case they need to get it under control now or it will get much worse quickly. I would never put vinegar on a child's tongue. Never even heard of that.

I do not think these children are strong willed, I think the parents are too laid back.

The parents do not realize these children as begging for rules, expectations and guidance. This is a gift they give their children.

Children like knowing the rules.
They like being rewarded for being good, but they also like to be corrected when they are "not doing it right".. It gives them comfort that someone cares enough to help them correct this behavior.

It is like if you and I were about to cross the street and you did not look both ways , but I grabbed your arm and said , "hold on a car is coming!"

I may say it angrily or in an upset voice, may even yell. I am not mad at you I am concerned for you. I would then say, "wow, you need to remember to look before you cross."

This is the same thing each time a parent corrects or raises their voice to remind a child, "we do not act like that."

Also it takes a very strong person to be able to wait out a child's behaviors.

Time out for 10 minutes facing a corner and not allowed to make a sound or get up.. can take much longer, when the parent is willing to stick with it. If that child gets up, the parent places them back and the time begins again. No matter how many times or how long it actually takes.

Telling a child."I cannot hear crying. I cannot hear whining" and truly, closing the door and walking away EVERY TIME will work.

It is always a test with children.

Before going to the playground, state the rules. You will use good manners, you will share, no kicking, no hitting. If you break these rules we will leave.. And then do it.

Going to the grocery store.. Tell the child "Pick a snack and a drink, we do not buy treats at the store. You will sit in the basket. We are only purchasing what is on the list. " If you do not follow these rules we will leave and not have any groceries".. And then do it.
I am going to PM you my rules for tantrums and whining.. I think the moms on hear have read it so much they are sick of it..

Let your friend know She can fix this. It takes a lot of energy and dedication on her part.

When my daughter was three she ruled our house (and I had a two-year old and 7-year old at the same time). I remember ordering 7 books on discipline from Amazon one day, just trying to find a solution.

The book, "Parenting with Love and Logic", turned our household around. This one tip worked: When the child is misbehaving, give them two options: they can either stop doing the behavior with a consequence, or they can stop doing the behavior without a consequence.

Like your friend's daughter, there weren't too many consequences that mattered to my daughter. However, the one suggested in the book worked. This consequence is a single swat to the bottom. This is different than spanking, since it's not done out of anger, and it's only one swat. My daughter only needed one swat (in her whole life) to understand the consequence, and from that day on she behaved when I asked her to. (I'm not saying she wasn't still strong-willed and defiant - still is - but that one tip let me have control of our house again).

Here's how it might sound: "You can either pick up your toys with a swat, or you can pick up your toys without a swat - which would you rather do?", or "You can stop hitting your brother with a swat, or you can stop hitting your brother without a swat - which would you rather do?"

This technique felt like a miracle to me!

Good luck!

I have no suggestions for you, just wanted to let you know my daughter was the same way. I had no idea how to discipline her because she also did not care if I took her toys away, put her in time out, or anything else. She also would have lifted the trash can lid and thrown the ice cream in there herself and then would have looked at me like 'now what?' I know the frustration your friend must be feeling. I think that because her daughter is so strong-willed and your friend so quiet, that her daughter feels like she's running the show (and she probably is). Her daughter is taking "kindness for weakness" and your friend needs to show her some strength or she's in for a terrible time.