Bedtime Woes - Jackson,MI

Do they have to share a room?
I guess so, since this is their arrangement.
Oh sorry, you already said that.

All I know is, when I was a kid, I shared a room with a sibling.
I HATED it. I was the younger one.
About the same age spread as your 2 boys.
We just did NOT get along... in terms of ages and personalities and temperaments and disposition and sleep habits and on and on and on.
So then, my parents gave us our own rooms.
And then it was much better. And then my sibling could rule her own roost.

2.5 and a 4 year old, are disparate ages.

I would make both of their bedtimes the same.
My kids are 5 and 9, and they go to bed at the same time.
Sure, when my son was a baby, he'd go to bed earlier. But then as he got older, he and my daughter go to bed at the same time. Which is BY 8-8:30pm.

And your Husband should not, "let" one sleep later than the other. That is why there is conflict. AND because that time is referred to as "special time" with Daddy or Mommy. That in itself, has now been made to seem like a preferential time, and of it being one kid versus another. So of course there is competition about it... and one child feeling it is unjust.

I would not hinge.... their bedtimes or "special time" at night... according to what they do prior, during the entire day. That is too long and too much for young kids. And no kid will be perfect ALL day. Even for me, if "I" myself had to do that... or else I loose stars at the end of the day... I would be irked and frustrated. Because, I cannot be PERFECT all day. No one can. It is sort of self defeating.

I don't know. The boys have to share a room.
Why not take out all their toys from the room, put it in a play room. Then they will not have stuff, to turn into a tornado.

In some parts of the world, culturally, the kids or family may sleep in a family room. So, that may be an idea. A kid sleeping in another, room.

To me, the problems got instigated, because now the older one is allowed to stay up later and have "special time". And then the younger one, gets to stay up later too sometimes. What time is "later" exactly???? 8:00pm? 9:00pm?
And what exactly, is the child doing.... when he gets to stay up later??? Watching TV? Horse-playing? Doing independent play?
Staying up Too late... also means kids get overtired and overstimulated. And, if like my son, once they are tired, they actually get more "hyper" and then cannot wind down. Because they are overtired. And then they don't fall asleep well.

Try keeping the whole house dark... when it is bedtime. Only leave on 1 lamp. Make everything quiet. Calm things down. Make it a rule. Before... bedtime.
And verbally tell both boys, that bedtime is coming up.
You gotta set the stage for it. Making the atmosphere, appropriate for bedtime.
That is what I have always done with my kids.
We don't have bedtime battles.

Again, you did not say what staying up later means or what "special time" is... in terms of what the child gets to do, or what he does.
But, speaking in terms of my kids, if they horse-play before bed, they have a HARD TIME, winding-down and falling asleep. Even if they are tired.

Seems like everything was going fine when the younger O. went to sleep earlier.

Your star system sounds a little bit like "extra time" before bed is pretty much guaranteed.

Staying up for "special time"might need to be changed to O.-on-O. mom or dad time...BEFORE bedtime.

Ditto OneAndDone.
As an alternative (or additional?) idea... what if you took AWAY time for being rowdy after lights out? In other words, whatever their bedtime routine is, if they are hellions after lights out, they lose 15 minutes before bed tomorrow night--no matter the stars or whatever else.

Really, though, it seems like the simplest thing is just to go back to staggered bedtimes. It doesn't have to be something earned... just do it. Or maybe you could alternate nights, so that one goes early one night and the other goes early the next. Or by the week.

I never had to deal with this long term. We rented space for about 10 months and our two kids had to share a bedroom. 4 & 7 yrs old, girl and boy. It was awful at bedtime. Every time I'd figure out a new way to deal with it, it would work for a week or so and then get "old" and they'd not care or whatever. So I feel your pain. My only thing was that I knew it was short term and was ending as soon as our house was finished.
<hugs>

Christine D is exactly right about the rewards thing you've got going. Life doesn't really work like that. Bribing them to be good needs to end.

My boys shared a room for many years, and they never did this. I really think that the reason this is happening is that they are choosing not getting a reward because their behavior is more reward than your reward. You've taught them to do this, R.. Dump your reward plan.

For the bedtime issue, Supernanny handled this by having the parent sit in the floor of the room every night with the parent's back turned away from the kids. Every time one of the kids got up, the parent would get up and move the kid back into the bed. One kid actually escaped out the door the first night - you would have thought those kids were animals in a zoo. But it got better and instead of taking an hour for them to fall asleep, by the third night it was down to 15 minutes. No talking, no fussing, just getting up and leading them back to their beds every time. Eventually, there would be no need to sit in the floor of the room.

I highly recommend that you do this, in addition to dropping your flawed reward system. The kids need to behave because they need to, not because they are rewarded for it. If they don't do what they are told, like Supernanny does, put them in time out EVERY SINGLE TIME until they act properly. And after they come out of time out, they have to do what they didn't want to do anyway.

I hope you will do this for their sakes, and your sanity.

Dawn

I would immediately institute special one on one time with each child -- and make it at a time not at bed.

Then, I would say that you're probably going to have to reschool them on bed time (means maybe a few long nights for you & DH). Explain the expectations for bed time, and simply do not give them the opportunity to get away with it. Stay in the room with them, but don't interact/talk (explain that you're not going to talk to them, that it is a time for sleeping). When they get out of bed, physical take them back to bed, remind them its time for sleeping, and then after that, take them back to bed each and every time. Any toys or loveys or blankets that get thrown out of bed tonight get thrown out--ignore it.

If that doesn't work (given it a couple of nights to work, and be consistenct), then I think the next step is to set up a separate sleeping arrangement elsewhere for one of them. Make sure that the arrangement does not feel like a "special" thing: ie, not in mom & dad's room, or where there a TV/toys.

S.H. has a good answer.
You're setting up problems with this method -- with time as they get older. Nothing should hinge on what they're doing like listening, put toys away or whatever. This is something that should be a part of life. You aren't training animals, you're raising children to become adults. If you teach this way, you are saying to them that they shouldn't do anything unless there is something in it for them -- translates into selfish motives. It's almost like bribing. Really becomes huge issues as they become older and especially as teens and adults. Remember some day they will be adults and you will be old and may need their help -- do you want them to want to be with you and or help you or do something for you because you'll pay them or because they love you.

Your actions are their examples, they will imitate you. You are their first teacher.

Sleep time can be an issue at times for most kids. Set the stage, this is so important. S.H. talks about this. You may want to have a dark room and light a candle and tell a calming short story, say their prayers and blow the candle out. Having a ritual, something sweet and calm and special makes a big difference. Maybe something like this ~~ Tell them when the candle goes out it's time to rest and sleep till the morning. You may want to say something like, 'the sun has gone to sleep and so we too go to sleep. The candle will shine for us now as we get ready for sleep and all comfy in our beds.When the candle goes out we go to sleep' Light the candle and say, "candle, candle burning bright share with us your golden llight." Then tell them, 'it's time for a story and we must be very quiet, let's see how quiet we can be, when we're silent we can hear everything.' And everyone is just as quiet as can be for a minute then begin the story. After the story say prayers or what ever you believe in, even if it's just a positive statement to send them off into a quiet place with a sense of peace. Hug them, kiss them and say and tell them how much you love them and how wonderful it is to be with them, and say, "good-night, sleep tight.' Then say, "candle, candle buring bright thank you for your golden light." and blow it out.

This may not always work perfectly, but it's an example of a good ritual to send them off to sleep. It makes them feel secure and comfortable and ready to drift off peacefully. Children need a sense of warmth and security from their parents, a sense of being loved just as they are.

Try to be patient with them if they start fighting and tell them the candle is sleeping so now they too must sleep.

We have a lantern with a candle in it, it is our lantern just for this purpose.

The best to you and your little ones