Handling Tantrums in Public with Two Kids.

I agree with the others:
1. Work on preventing these epic tantrums
2. Occasionally leave them home for errands

Good luck. Sounds stressful.

Take a little squirt or spray bottle with you filled with water and when he starts tantrum spray in the face , stops them in their tracks and is not abusive. I have 5 grown children worked with all ,even with different personalities.

Wait a minute - I was with you until I got to this "He will not participate in time outs." Since when do kids get to choose whether or not to participate in time out? You are the parent. The child misbehaves, he goes into time out. If you are out somewhere, you strap him into his car seat, and stand outside the car for the time-out period.

If you are somewhere fun, you leave (yes, this punishes the little one too, but that's unavoidable). The only way you can get temper tantrums under control is to establish a consequence every single time.

ETA: You need to consider time-outs more broadly. It does not mean putting him in a crib. If you are in a store, it means leaving and putting him into his car seat (I don't know any 3 year old that can undo a 5-point harness). If you are at home, it may mean that you sit on the couch in a room away from everything holding him on your lap with his back to your front, so you are keeping him in place but he's not getting attention, per se.

C. W. -

I get that you/ the family are opposed to a sitter, but how about a helper? It can be anyone of any age that will be your second set of hands, together with you and the children. It can be a real godsend.

Another thought, you might not do "bribes", but would you consider extending a privelege instead? i.e. if you behave well at the park (articulate your expecations, for us it is - keep your hands to yourself, listen to mommy and daddy, hold mommy's hand on the way there and back), when we get home you can -
-choose whether we'll have snap peas or carrot sticks for our snack.
-do two pages of a coloring book.
-play with your train set.
You need not promise a cookie.

My kid was a runner, we used a leash. I'd rather him leashed than hit by a car. We found that he was also more manageable if he was tasked with something- pushing the stroller, riding his tricycle, walking the dog, helping me carry a bag.

Perhaps one or two of these ideas might prove useful.
Best to you and yours,
F. B.

Get a sitter for the one who won't behave. I know you say you won't use anyone not related by blood but some day your children will be in school and around people not related by blood. Might as well get started on them being around others or you'll be in for bigger issues.

Secondly, work on parenting skills ( both you and hubby). Your 3 yr old should not be running your household.

Who is the parent and who is the child? You plan the day and go with it. Learn how to follow through on what is needed to be done and just do it. If a leash is needed to keep the child from running in the street or being hit by a car use it. The mere thought of a child running in front of a car and being killed is more horrible than a leashed kid living to run another day. Kids are not dogs, they are small individuals that do not know and have to be taught.

Get into parenting classes (hubby as well). Get out among strangers so that when you send your child to school he/she will be able to handle other people doing for them. How will they handle mommy not being there is something were to happen or you go to the hospital? They will adjust better than you.

It is nice to try to protect our children from the world but we also need to prepare them for the world that they will live in. Yes, they do need to have some street smarts or they will be prey to all kinds of schemes.

Oh three year olds do tantrums. You have to find their currency and deal with it. Perhaps the favorite toy gets put into time out.

Good luck to you.

A child should not ruin a trip to the park for everyone.

the other S.

Three is the age of tantrums. It's incredibly frustrating.

I would start with just 1 quick errand in the morning after breakfast when the kids are most happy and least tired.

Praise, praise praise when things go well.

I would reward them when things go well: they get the free cookie from the grocery store (in the check out line) if they behave, if one child behaves, he gets the cookie in his car seat. I wouldn't think of it as a bribe; it's a reward for a job well done.

The moment the tantrum starts, get your son out of there and back home. Reasoning with a 3 year old in a tantrum does not work.

I wouldn't worry about your younger child being "punished" by having to leave when his older brother is having a tantrum. Believe me, there will be times when the younger one has a tantrum and your older one behaves. It all evens out. In the meantime, your younger one is learning "When you can't behave, you can't be here." Not a bad lesson for a two year old to observe.

I would try to figure out what triggers the tantrum: time of day, hunger, errand too long, having to be still & quiet for a long time, etc. When my son was 3 he hated transitions (having to stop what he was doing) and leaving places. It helped to know what triggered him and gave me more patience to handle the tantrum.

I wish I could tell you my magic trick for stopping his tantrums but the truth is I tried a variety of things and most of them did not work. I had the most success with giving two positive choices as Julie's post mentioned, ("Do you want to sit in the stroller or hold my hand?") But most frequently I got him out of places and took him back home. What finally did work was he turned 4. He was simply older: his level of understanding & ability to reason increased, his tolerance of frustration increased and the tantrums disappeared.

One final thought: at the end of their tantrums, my kids always needed a hug. I always hugged them and told them "I love you, no matter what."
That hug was good for both of us!

Hang in there!
T.
SAHM of 5
14, 12, 6, 4 & 2

****Just added: Homeschooled ??!!! I just saw this part. I homeschool too-or did until 6 weeks ago due to emergency, but: You will not be able to homeschool if you ignore fits or defer to time outs for very difficult kids. You have to have control over your kids or the difficult task of homeschooling is rendered impossible. I know moms who have quit homeschooling simply because of their kids behavior, so really, crack down! You can do it! Get the book below and I have another one if you PM me****

I have three now 8, 6 and 4. One was very spirited and one was born a super rager. None of them were allowed to have fits. Like you I had no one to leave them with and I took them everywhere so "leaving them home" was not an option. Plus, I don't believe it's good for kids to get in that habit. Kids can behave and they're proud of themselves when they do and your days can be fun, not misery.

You CAN discipline fits and stop them. In public too. It may take more consistency at 3 since fits usually start before 18 months and habits get harder to break over time not easier, but you can do it. There really is no way to "handle a fit" unless you want to allow the fit, abort mission and haul a screaming kid out of wherever you are every time they decide to flip out and then wait out the storm (cringe). But you don't have to live that way. Plus some kids will tantrum up to age 7 or 8 if you let them. Lay down the law, mom. Three is too old for that. Natural if allowed, but way too old.

NEVER IGNORE. Ignoring is condoning.

Nip the fits. Get the book Back to Basics Discipline by Janet Campbell Matson.

For now I would do all my errands (grocery/Target shopping, exercise classes, etc.) in the evenings, let daddy deal with it.
If it continues, that is, if he doesn't grow out of it, maybe seek out some parenting classes.
And talk to the pediatrician, make sure there isn't anything physically or developmentally going on.

Read 1-2-3 Magic and take a Parenting with Love and Logic class. These will help you to understand how to best follow through with consequences. These will help you to understand better the developmental stages, why a child is having these behaviors and what your contribution to those behaviors are.

It sounds like you have a lot of fearful thoughts and beliefs that are severely affecting your ability to parent effectively. As some of the other moms have suggested, therapy is a must at this time. (As a side note, children are more often abused by family members than they are by a babysitter that has been vetted, so some of your fearful thinking is based on assumptions that they are safer with family which isn't statistically correct.) It will be important to explore with a good counselor all of your fearful assumptions so that you can find solutions that are more healthy for all of you.

Yes, there are children that are abused and hurt in the world, however, a constant need to protect our children can cause serious harm as well. We cannot prevent the bad things so, instead, we need to teach them how to deal with the hard things in life. Instead of trying to put our children in the proverbial bubble, we can teach them how to be aware, how to say no, how to ask for help, what good touch, bad touch, and secret touch is (There is a great children's book by Jan Hindman to help with that), how to listen to their intuition, and how to have good boundaries. Of course, the best way to do all of that is by modeling it ourselves. If we, as parents, just walk around fearful all of the time then we are not resourcing ourselves and questioning our own thoughts and are therefore teaching our children how to do that too.

Avoidance is not a good tool to teach them. Resourcing is a much better tool. It sounds like, not only are you trying to avoid an abusive situation, but you are trying to create a situation in which your children never even experience a negative emotion. That is often the trap parents fall into. "I just want my child to be happy" is the phrase that seals the fate of discipline. We live on planet earth. We have a whole spectrum of emotions. It isn't the emotions that are the problem. It is how we deal with them. As you want your child to be happy you eliminate how to teach them what to do when they are frustrated, scared, or sad.

There is a difference between bribes and rewards. Bribes come before the behavior and rewards come after the behavior. Rewards that are small and simple can be extremely effective. For example, when we went to the store we had three rules: 1) No running off, 2) no touching, and 3) No yelling. If they followed all three then they got a candy bar or hot wheels. We always reminded them as we walked in the store so they had it fresh in their minds.

You need to not worry about the youngest having to suffer the consequences of the older one. That is life. Life is not fair and, again, if we try and be fair we will fail miserably as well as not be consistent in our discipline. If your older one throws a fit and you have to leave the park, then you do it. This will actually teach the younger one about clear, consistent consequences.

You have to get him to cooperate. I find that kids cooperate more if you ask them the right questions. You need to give him more opportunities to make choices, but choices you can live with. So,mommy needs to use the bathroom. Do you want to walk alone or hold my hand? Offer up choices, and he should comply more often. It is an art that takes time to master, but I can get my strong willed child to do almost anything if I offer it up right.

Second, they are children, not dogs, so they don't require leashes. yes, some kids run, but play red light green light and explain what a safe distance from mommy is. And again, offer a choice: you can walk near mommy or go in the stroller, it's your choice. Practice on walks around the neighborhood.

Third, you need to help him learn how to calm down. I work with my kids on breathing techniques.

Fourth, there is a great book called something like" I just don't like the sound of No". it's great for helping kids to learn how to handle and manage "nos."

Fifth, he is tantruming because he doesn't know how else to express what he is feeling and thinking, so, what I did with my 3 year olds was look at them at eye level, and then say " I really want to help you, but I don't know what you are saying or what the problem is. Can you take a few deep breaths and find your normal voice so I can understand?" Then, I use empathetic listening," oh you don't want to go to the bathroom, it's boring and you'd rather swing." Once the kid is totally calm, has had a few cuddles, then you offer up a choice "Mommy has to go to the potty, this isn't negotiable. do you want to hold my hand or walk by yourself? After we do this, why don't we go do X (something he/she loves)"

Sometimes you just have to leave, and sometimes the second kid just has to suffer through.

BTW, he doesn't have to be a ticking bomb. My first threw tantrums like mad. My second? He threw one or two in public, and we had one rough week at home. Some kids just are easier, and I think the second kid learns a lot about what not to do. My second is a master of getting what he wants, by being cooperative, by listening, etc. he does the opposite of what his older sister did, because he saw her not get what she wants. So, be positive here. 2s don't have to be difficult. They can just be super cute! With that said, I did not take my easy going boy to the grocery store. he hated it there. My girls don't seem to mind, they actually like it.

A good place to start might be to try and think of what sets him off. Is it certain times of the day, too long since he last ate or drank, particular activities? If you are able to notice a pattern, you might be able to head off some of these meltdowns. Our youngest had meltdowns if he didn't eat every couple of hours. My husband and I used to joke, "Oops, we forgot to feed the monster." Don't remember my oldest having quite the same need ... then again, he was an only for about 2 1/2 years.

Is he in preschool? Or some other organized activity without Mommy around? If there is something he can participate in, even one or two mornings a week, it can really go a long way towards reinforcing those good behaviors you've been teaching him.

It might help to go over the rules right before you go somewhere. Remind them about how to behave at the store. I sometimes have to do this with my 8 year old! Ug! But it's worth it.

Finally, bribing isn't necessarily a bad thing. You could think of it as a reward. Is there a way you can reward him for good behavior. My brother and his wife do this at Target. One of them rewards the kids with a treat if they are good during the shopping trip. The other parent buys them a treat as soon as they get there and let's them enjoy the treat while the shopping gets done.

Hey, whatever works! And I really mean that. Sometimes you just have to do what works, even if it isn't what you originally envisioned. Try not to get too caught up in what you fear will become a bad habit. You can always make adjustments later, but right now you need to try a few things, even things you might have sworn you'd never do, to see what works.

They really do grow out of these stages!

Honestly none of my kids always wanted to stay home because home was boring. Why isn't your home boring? Have you made it fun because you are reluctant to take him out? because you don't want him having a tantrum at home? I ask because I know a few people who say their kids are angels because they have made it so they never have to say no to them. Effective I suppose if you want a spoiled brat that you can never take out in public.

So my suggestion is figure out what you have done at home and remove it, make it boring, so that like any other kid they want to go out. For my kids the playground at the park was far superior to the little tykes thing in the family room. When they want to go out control is a function of if you want to stay, do this, you have a level of behavior that is expected, that is clear. One toe out of line you go home.

My kids were three and one when I made this discovery, took about a month of hell but they did become those kids people marvel at. :)

This is exactly why I love Mother's Day Out programs. You take the kids to the church and they go play and have fun. I could go to a doc appt. I made them on the days the kids would be gone, I could go get groceries by myself, and I could clean house or take a bath by myself or anything I wanted.

When my hubby wouldn't watch the kids in the evenings so I could go do stuff without them I found an alternative.

It's also possible to switch with a friend. You watch hers and she watches yours. 3 hours per week each. No more no less.

Updated

This is exactly why I love Mother's Day Out programs. You take the kids to the church and they go play and have fun. I could go to a doc appt. I made them on the days the kids would be gone, I could go get groceries by myself, and I could clean house or take a bath by myself or anything I wanted.

When my hubby wouldn't watch the kids in the evenings so I could go do stuff without them I found an alternative.

It's also possible to switch with a friend. You watch hers and she watches yours. 3 hours per week each. No more no less.

My Mom handled it by not taking us out in public till my younger sister was about 5 years old.
We stayed home with a baby sitter if she had to run errands.

Additional:
Use recommendations from other parents and find a sitter. There's no reason to suspect everyone but a blood relative could be a potential abuser - that's just a bit paranoid.
As far as ignoring a tantrum goes - yes - but - put him in his room and tell him he can come out when ever he's done pitching a fit.
He doesn't get to follow you around screaming at you.
Once he gets better control of himself at home (he knows you will send him to hiss room and will stop with the warning) then he's ready for some trips out in public.
If he has a tantrum in public, you take him to your car and he can scream in there while you stand outside the car until he's finished or you take him home.
Expect you might have to stop what ever you're doing to take him home - some trips will be cut short.
But once he knows you mean business and he knows what the consequence for the tantrum will be he'll gradually be better able to control himself.
By 4 or 4 1/2 he should pretty much have outgrown the tantrum phase.

"How do I get him to quit his tantrums whn in public?"

C. - frankly, you don't. As an adult, you need to understand and accept that between 2 and 3 yrs, your toddler lives the First Adolescence - he needs and has to say "no" to whatever you ask, because he's just discovered he can and because he wants to be listened to, to have his own opinion - which is meant to be different from ours, the adults, more often that we wish it were. His personality starts to grow apart from others'.
In addition to that, you can't reason with your son while he's in the middle of a crysis. He just won't listen/doesn't care. He's just too young to control his emotions, and neither is this recommended by this age! Be careful - forcing him to "swallow" his pride and become as obedient as you wish, be it because he wants that reward or hates to be spanked/ taking a time out, is called manipulating his feelings - and so you teach him how to deny his feelings infront of the eyes of society. When all he needs is to LEARN HOW TO COPE WITH HIS FEELINGS when things are not going his way (that's one of the things that the first adolescence is supposed to do for him).
He may also be too young to remember and take seriously what you told him before leaving home. And even if you remind him of your little deal just as you walk into that park/store, he might just find, emotionally speaking, this urge of shouting/his anger, more important than the reward/punishment. Because kids at this age digest whatever situation are in through their emotional aparatus, and not rationally, as we do.
So what does this leave you to do? The only and the best thing to do for you and your son is to accept it. Stand by him untill he calms down and during his tantrum, you can hold his hand and caress him and say "I know how enfuriating/frustrating/etc. this must be, but life's like this sometimes. Still, you have me by you side and all my love and patience" and try to comfort him, to hold him and hug him after the tantrum is gone. With time, tantrums will become more and more easy, till they go away for good.
As to his little brother, I don't find that he takes any consequence of that; he just happens to be there.
I am the mother of a 3 yrs and 6 yrs old boys and I've been through this as a single mom and I know how desperate you must feel at this point. I had NOONE to help me, nor the money to hire some help. And I saw it as a never-ending struggle AGAINST my little boys. Until I ceased to oppose. I started to support them. And I did ok through all of this.
We have to deal with other problems now, which are far more complex, so get ready and have endless resources of love, patience and confidence, and you will do just great!

**** I feel like I should add this, even if it sounds a bit redundant - try to understand HIS position, and like other mothers suggested, if you don't UNDERSTAND the place he is in at this age, you should read some more about what changes children experience by now. You should always be WITH him, not against him, make him feel you share his feelings, you totally understand how difficult it is for him to go through such enfuriating situations - "mom is very sorry she has to do xyz and I know this enfuriates you and it is only normal to be like that, but that's the way things are/it is for your own good". He won't end up hating you/hiding his feelings/not having a word to say as an adult and, in time, he'll do things naturally, the way you wanted him. ****