My 4.5 year old has a 5.5 year old friend. We have her over for playdates about 1 x a week and my daughter goes there about 1 x a week. This friend is very cunning and sneaky. She knows the rules, listens carefully when you tell her not to do something and then will wait until you leave and do exactly what you told her not to do. My daughter has ADHD and has problems with impulse control. I don't think this is the same thing--this girl CAN control her impulses--she deliberately watches and waits until you leave to do her mischief. Yesterday my daughter was at this friend's house. Later she tells me that she and M went snuck out of the backyard while her mother was inside, went to a strange man's house where they ate some yogurt. I sent the mom an email to see if this was true or if L had made it up. It was TRUE. The guy was a "good family friend" who lives next door or down the street. Apparently the mom and both girls were in the backyard and the mom ran in to answer the phone, the friend took the opportunity and snuck them out of the yard and to this guy's house. I know that my daughter tends to be a follower in these situations--she doesn't do sneaky mischief like that but I was SHOCKED and pissed and blown-away. The mom said she has been having so many problems with her daughter lately. She is unfazed by punishement- and in fact later got a time out. The mother heard the timer ding after only a few mins and it turns out M had rigged the timer to go off early and very proudly brought it to her mother saying her time out was done. This little girl always seems very friendly--great with babies and animals, very eager to please on the surface but a bald-faced liar and the sneakiest and least remorseful child I have ever met. Obviously, the playdates are on hold right now. Is she just a tough kid or could there be more going on here? It is NOT the case of lax parenting-in fact, they have gotten increasingly harder on her and feel bad about it. She just doesn't change or respond to discipline. Anyway, an interesting case and probably not the best influence for my daughter!
EDIT: I do not put ideas in her head. I catch her doing something, like taking water in teacups into my daughter's room, I firmly tell her, "M, I don't want you taking water in L's room in those cups. It could spill," or whatever. She will then stop, watch me, and sometimes I'll hear her whisper things like "Your mom isn't watching now" or "Your mom can't see us," and THEN do what I JUST
asked her not to do.
I am not planning on saying anything to mother about her daughter's behavior other than the fact that she is challenging. I didn't include this but this girl has basically no other friends than my daughter now because none of the mothers can stand her. I used to work at a gym daycare co-op with a bunch of other moms and unfortunately, no one liked caring for this child because of how she behaves. One woman actually changed gyms so that she would not have to put her children in the daycare with her! It's sad. I feel bad for her and her mother but I was really freaked out by this last incident. Yes it is obnoxious when this girl goes into my room and pours out all my nose medicine into the top of the humidifier, it is annoying that she picks up my baby despite the many times I've asked her not to, it is annoying that she asks for food every five mins and tells me that her mother didn't feed her lunch (not true!) but she is a little kid. Her mother said she had reminded her of the rules (stay in the backyard!) when they all went out and then she obviously waited for a moment when her mother was gone for a minute. It is beyond mischief. It's dangerous. I just wanted some opinions for curiosity sake. I never leave the girls unattended at my house--NEVER. I CAN'T. I know where they are and what they are doing at all times. I can leave my daughter with all of her other friends unattended--I mean this loosely--I don't have to check on them every 5 mins. the way I do when M is over--but they can play quietly in her room with the door shut for 1/2 an hour without needing to be checked on for mischief.
Are you familiar with Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD)? Some things you're saying sound similar to that.
I also think that some kids are just sneakier than others. They see kids/grown ups as a us vs. them thing. I know my son (7) has O. friend who is definitely manipulative and sneakier than all of the others. I've gotta keep a closer watch on him when he's here.
Hello! =)
I didn't read anyone else's responses, so I am sorry if I am repeating what anyone else said.
If this were ME, here is what I would do. I would say "no thank you" to any play dates that require either one of you Moms to be the only caretaker. Don't let her come over without her Mom and don't leave your daughter at her house if you can't stay. It's a very simple thing to do. I am friends with all of the mothers of my kid's friends. In fact, my kids only get to spend time with their friends because I became friends with the parents first. My neighbor will come over for the afternoon and bring her kids. My neighbor and I will hang out and the kids will play. This way, everyone is responsible for their own child. We don't have an issue with the kids hanging out at either house without the other parent staying, but quite honestly, if my kids are going to play with their friends, I want to "play" with mine, too. =) Neither one of us Moms want to be the babysitter (though again, it wouldn't be an issue, and we do babysit for each other when needed). We just take the time to socialize with each other while making sure that our kids are playing and learning to do it in a healthy way. Now some Mom's are not into that or can't do that because they have things to do. For my neighbor and I, we just don't get together if we have other things to take care of that day. Our kids (all together) are 1, 2, 5, 7, 8, and 10. Some need more supervision than others. The older ones can all play together nicely. The point is that if someone is doing something they shouldn't, it comes out really quickly and the correct parent can address the issue. Solves a lot of problems! =) Also, by spending time with the mother, as friends, we know each others parenting style and expectations. So when I leave my kids with her, she already knows what I would or would not want them to do.
As far as the going to the man's house, I would have lost it quite honestly. Just because he is their "good family friend" doesn't mean that he is yours. The fact that they went over there without her knowing is a huge issue. I am the type of parent that doesn't even leave my kids in the front yard when I run back in to get the sunscreen. This isn't because I am sheltering them or because I am paranoid. I have just made a very deliberate decision to NEVER be the reason why my children have a horrible or tragic experience at the hands of someone dangerous. If someone snatched them up, it would be my fault and not theirs. While rare, it happens and I will not be the adult who puts them in that position.This goes for friends houses, too. My rules don't change but should they find themselves in a situation that they know I wouldn't put them in, I have prepared them as best as I can for it. My kids know how to tell an adult, even one they don't know very well, "I know that my Mom would not let me do that." or "can we call my Mom and ask her if that is ok?" I believe that four and five year olds should not be left unattended in a backyard, if there is a way out, even if the phone rings. A phone takes a few seconds to answer and if it's a cordless phone it then goes outside after being answered. To be able to make it all the way next door or down the street without being noticed does not make sense if someone is just answering a phone. That happening has nothing to do with the child, but the parent who is supposed to be watching both children. I say, do not compromise on that one. If this had happened to my 4 1/2 year old, that would be the end of all visits (unless I am there) just based on that.
I don't think there is any reason to say anything to the mother since it sounds like she pretty much knows. I would just try to make this a friendship that keeps your daughter's best interest before anything else. I am sure this is a situation that you wish you weren't in, but I say make the best of it. If you want to save the friendship and keep it a mother/daughter play date, at least you will know that your daughter is safe and a 5 1/2 year old won't have as many opportunities to be so sneaky. Hope it all works out!! Hugs!
I'd say it's time for some new friends. I wouldn't be able to stand the sneakiness and the lying. And sneaking out to some guys house while the Mom's back was turned for a few minutes - I'd have a problem with that. You know your daughter is a follower. She needs a better example to follow.
What a dilemma. First off, for those of you that have talked about sociopathic and ODD, please be careful. You cannot (and should not) be diagnosing anyone at this age. Sociopathology cannot be a diagnosis until after the age of 18. ODD typically starts manifesting a little later than 5 (not saying that it could not be in a child of this age, but that's it's rare without several other risk factors). However, to me, that is not the main issue that is going on here. E., you seem like a great mother, and also very empathetic to your daughters friend. But, this friend has now seemingly endangered two of your children. First, she took your child to a strange man's home. Even if the family knows him, you do not, and I would be VERY concerned about this. For that reason alone I would stop all play dates. The second reason is she picked up your baby despite you telling her this is a firm boundary. This is again, a huge safety issue. I know you'd probably like to not end the play dates, and this might seem harsh, but if your children are now being put into unsafe situations (and again, I cannot stress how unsafe going to the neighbor man's house is..) it is imperative you take control of what YOU can control, which is who your daughter plays with, as you cannot really do anything about this little girl's behavior. While it is sad she has no friends, and you obviously love children and feel for this little girl, it's your children and their safety that has to come first. I'm in no way implying that you are not keeping them safe, as we all, as mothers, encounter new things that have compromised the safety of our children. It's the response that's important. You're absolutely correct when you say it's beyond mischief, it's dangerous. It's ok to say no more play dates, even supervised. Children are very impressionable at this age, and as parents, it's our job to monitor what they are being subjected too, whether it's TV, Computer OR friends. If she asks, you can simply say you didn't like the way "M" did not listen to you, and you don't like to be friends with someone who deliberately treats you badly (by not being respectful of your requests, just like an "adult" friend should be), and you'll be role modeling to your daughter how to pick good friends. It is a natural consequence for "M" to not have anyone that wants to play with her because of her behaviors. Ultimately, that might help her learn to respect others boundaries more than punishment.
Best of luck to you
K., MA, LPC
I may be a bit late giving my opinion, but I'll give it anyway. If you want your daughter to start displaying some of M's characteristics, continue to let them play together. If not, end the playdates with this child immediately. Take the hint from the other moms out there who are protecting their children from such behaviors.
I too have a 4yr old. My best friend has a daughter who sounds a lot like M, and I have had to cut off playdates completely. It's hard, but you need to take care of your child, and not worry so much about everyone else.
How do you know that this little girl doesn't have the same problem as your little girl too? And, you also don't know what your daughter is doing as soon as you turn your back, so your daughter may be doing the same thing and you just don't know she is.
Maybe you could try not telling her to not do something. By telling her that, you are putting the idea in her head TO do it, and therefore acts on impulse like your daughter does. Just like when you tell a kid not to get into the cookie jar and what does the kid immediately think? "I want a cookie!!!".
I'd ease up a bit, the kid is only 5!
EDIT********************
Ok, I just read your edit...the kids a brat! BUT, kids just don't turn bratty IF the parents are doing a good job though. The parents are probably not being consistent here and are probably too soft on her! Tell her, if she can't mind your rules then she won't be able to come over and play anymore, then stick to it. I bet she may not be bratty at your house anymore, and she'll have respect for you too, for being consistent.
It's too hard to know if there's something more going on with this little girl or not. Some of it could be "normal" for her, but the bottom line for you should be that if she can't follow the rules at your house she shouldn't be allowed to come to your house.
Good luck!
Sounds like a frustrating situation - and if I were you I would think about a few things. First, although she might not act on it does the little girl know the difference between right and wrong? Sounds like she does. So the difference that she does not care? People who are what we call "sociopath" start that way as children - biologically they are just not impacted the same way (anxiety, fear) when they do something wrong. So that might be it - or despite what looks like good parenting from the time you have spent together is only good when others are present and then really inconsistent when you are not around. And that would explain her lack of consideration for the rules. Second, can you have a different kind of playdate? One in which she is neither at your house or at hers? Some situation in which both kids can have their time together but that removes your rules and the moms rules? That way you can at least relax that she is less likely to disrupt your home and put your family in a tough situation or your daughter in danger at her own place. Third, this might be a great chance to teach your daughter that some friends are fun, but that she needs to be aware of how they impact her. Find out how uncomfortable she is and use it to teach her that she needs to do what she feels is right or even safe, regardless of what friends wants. Never too early to each that. Finally, is the little girl getting any type of help? Is the mom? Sounds like you know this mom, and despite not planning on saying anything that something needs to be said in terms of getting outside help. It does sounds like ODD, like another mom said... or some other conduct problem and that the mother is in over her head. You could use your own experiences with not understanding your daughter's outbursts, getting the diagnosis you totally were not expecting and then going through the adjustments and treatment. Might also be that she is super, super smart and some really smart kids challenge this way because that is what they do.
Just a few thoughts. Good luck!
I have a similar situation - a follower child with a boundary-testing friend. I don't want this friend to go without companionship (and our families have been friends for a long time, which would make it even harder to stop the friendship).
I don't believe in punishing other people's children; I'm not comfortable putting someone else's child in time-out, even at my house. I am totally comfortable - and I have done this more than once - saying "if you do ___, you will have to go home." I then follow through - no multiple warnings. I also do this as a discipline to my children - they're expected to do the right thing no matter what their friends or anyone around them is doing. For example, no food in the bedrooms - if my child allows food in the bedrooms when they have friends over, they aren't allowed to have friends over, starting immediately. For very serious offenses, (such as leaving our property without my knowledge or permission) I have "grounded" them from a particular friend for a week or more. I have one child who is not allowed to ever play with a particular neighbor alone- for some reason the two of them come up with bad ideas and execute them (namely, leaving our property without my permission). I make sure that the friend knows that my child is in trouble for doing what they suggested, and that the friend is not allowed to play at my house if they will not respect my rules. This has helped my children stop following quite so much, because if they don't just go along, the friend may be banned but my child isn't in trouble.
Having said all that, I think it's important to give another chance, so after an appropriate length of time (longer the older the child) I'll ask, "will you respect what I say if you're at my house?" and sometimes reiterate "and you won't ____ again at my house?" if I get the right answer, they can try again.
I presume that any child who is misbehaving consistently is not being parented appropriately for that child - the trick is every child is a different set of challenges, and needs a different approach. Still, this seems to work for neighbors, friends, and my children.
Good luck!
It seems like instead of dealing with the problem at hand everyone runs away from the problem with this girl. So she is still a small child i am sure she knows what she is doing wrong but sometimes i think its an attention getter children sometimes act out because they need that attention. My advice is when she is acting like this and you catch her dont be affraid to take her aside get down on her level and speak freely to her like a concerned adult speak in a low monotown voice not a harsh one but a short gruff one. Let her know you know whats going on. its hard in this situation cause its not your daughter but it might be a good idea to sit down with the mom and have a positive brain storm about this and see what you can do together to try to help this girl. Dont give up on her maybe she needs something she is not getting.
She might just be a very difficult child or it could be something more. If you are comfortable, suggest therapy. A good child psychologist would be the one to determine if this girl is just highly intelligent and strong willed or if it could be something calle Oppositional Defiant Disorder. Either way, therapy might help the child become more managable and might help everyone learn better methods at discipline and communication.
WARNING: If you or your friend start looking up ODD, don't panic. There is some good information out there, but there are also an internet's worth of horror stories.
Good luck!
Well, it sure sounds like parenting issues to me! If the mom knows the girl has a history of sneaking away from the yard she should NEVER leave her alone. Secondly, why is she leaving the timer near the child who is in time out?? I'm willing to bet that most of the issues have to do with a lack of consistency in her discipline. Usually when people say they've tried everything in the area of discipline, to me it's a red flag to me meaning they've tried a bunch of random ideas but none with consistency. I'm not trying to bag on your friend, but it sounds like maybe you have different ideals on how to raise children. I think that if your daughter and this girl are friendly you should maybe stick to playdates at your house where you have more control over the situation or invite her and the mom to a park or some other neutral place where both of you will be present.
Well the bottom-line is to protect your daughter and watch over her. Do not leave her unattended. As you see, she/they go places without any adult knowing... besides that man's house they sneak off to.
If that were my daughter/kid, I would not like that. At.all.
So, you can go about trying to psychoanalyze that girl... but that will not get anywhere because you/we are not trained to do so. Professionally.
So, the bottom line is still: watch over your daughter, Monitor her play-dates... and don't allow it if you are not comfortable with it.
Go by your gut instinct.... that is our Mom "radar."
all the best,
Susan
It sounds like you feel this child is well parented. It's all too easy (and comforting) for folks to say the parents are to blame or they must not be using the right techniques, and so on. So I'd like to share this:
I have a lovely friend who recently confided to me that she used to watch other people's children and pat herself on the back for what a GREAT parent she was, because her little girl never threw tantrums & rarely misbehaved in any meaningful way, and so on. Then she had her second daughter. She's a super high energy girl who screams and kicks ANY time she doesn't get PRECISELY what she wants and NO amount of "positive parenting" makes a difference. Some kids are just "harder" than others. However, almost all of them turn out OK.
What you describe here DOES sounds worrisome. And sometimes no matter HOW WELL you parent, you get who you get. There may be some issues here as well (I don't know what; I am not a therapist). THAT SAID, all 5 year olds are sneaky and tell tales. It's just that most of them are terribly bad at it.
Two things:
1. If you don't trust the little girl playing with your daughter, don't leave them unattended. If you do have to leave to answer a call, set the expectation: "I want the rules to be followed; Please respect my home, my daughter, and me. If you choose to NOT follow my expectations, I will be forced to send you ... to the step, timeout, or home!"
2. Increase your daughter self-awareness and self-confidence so she had the capacity to make safe independent choices. This is not the last child who will test your family's values through your daughter. Give her the tools to make good decisions.
Hope this helps.
First make sure your child even wants to be friends with this child...
We had a similar situation in our neighborhood and our children one by one asked to not have to play or invite these children over anymore. They knew these children were not following the rules.
Ok, so the little girl is a "tester". You are going to continue to allow your daughter to play with this child?
You do not want to say anything to the mother, but you are going to continue to allow your child to play alone with this child at the home of a mom that does not know how to discipline her child?
Just be prepared for more of this behavior, it is not going to change. You will need to be willing to discipline her at your home. Pouring medicine while in your room? No one elses children were ever allowed in rooms other than the "play" rooms or kitchen. And even the kitchen was with me present. Continuing to disobey you, means telling the child, "if you do not follow our rules, I will call your mother to pick you up. " And then do it.
We had friends with twins that could not be trusted. They were extremely bright. We all loved the parents, but dreaded the girls. So many terrible and almost evil behavior. Finally we one by one no longer were able to include that family in anything, because even when we told the parents, they did nothing to stop the girls. T
They once asked our daughter how she "could love her father because he was so fat!" They encouraged a child (younger than them) to eat an entire box of chocolates until the girl threw up. They moved furniture and gave a young child a bat to swing it at a bedroom ceiling fan with a glass bowl. These Twins were 4 and 5 at the time.
They became known as the evil twins. The parents had many friends, but the girls had very few close friends.
I met a young man like this once, and I just had to end my daughter's relationship with him because his sneakiness was aimed at my youngest child (a baby.) It was sad to just cut it off because we understand special needs, but necessary for her as she too, was a follower and he manipulated without the slightest sense of guilt or remorse for any action, and some of his were just terrible to my youngest child and very scarry. He seemed sociopathic to me, but I have no idea what his issues were.
I think that he needed therapy, but he was not lucky enough to have a set of parents who were willing to see him for who he was. Maybe she will get the help she needs before it ends up badly for her. I shudder to think what happened to this young man.
M.
So scary simular about your edit! The first time this young man came to my house, I gave them a snack, and he said to my daughter, "let's take it your your room" and I reminded my daughter of our rule, and she told him "no food upstairs" and every single time he came over after that, he snuck food or water into her room! I just have to say, I doubt that if this set of parents was willing to see what he was up to it would have been an uphill climb to get him any help and I thanked my lucky stars that our problem was autism instead! I thought that what ever this was, it was far worse. ODD is in your face, I am not sure it is manipulative and sneaky, nor do kids with ODD spend time acting like angels in front of their parents, most parents with kids who are ODD know it because of the way they treat them too! The kid I knew manipulated his parents into thinking that he could do no wrong, lied about everything he did, and hid his wrong doing from them artfully. It was all very well thought out and planned, and just a little evil. Like nothing I have ever seen before or since, and I see a lot of kids working as an educational advocate with lots of different issues!
that is good that the playdates are on hold, you know you are making a good call. I am not sure about the girl so sorry, but as for your DD sake you need to put her number one and shame on the mom for not watching them better, yeah I know it was a second they were in the back yard and it was just a phone call but she is not only responsible for her DD that she knows does stuff like this but she is responsible for SOMEONE elses kid. and it might be okay to leave her kid for a second, but not others......(not that it was yours that left I completly understand your question that her DD left the yard and yours followed). I am just stating that if I am watching someones kid you better bel. that I am WATCHIGN them.
One thing that is hard for me to choke down and even believe sometimes is that kids learn from their parents and the people we let them be around. This little girl isn't just born with a sneaky side, she has learned it. My guess is she has learned it from her parents. I know it may seem difficult to believe, but if this little girl is this good, how fantastic must her parents be at it? I suspect her parents are SO good you cannot even tell they are like this.
If I were you, I would no longer let my child play with this little girl. Your daughter WILL pick up on the behavior, ADHD or not. It is your job to not let this happen. This is not normal for a 4.5 year old, she is learning VERY early.
Good luck!
I don't think your child's friend is this evil you have made her out to be. I think she is a bright child and has figured out how to test boundries. Yes this is a parenting problem as her boundries are not being secured by her parents. My son snuck out of the back yard when I was not looking and by no means did we wait until company left to give him a time out, he got one right away the embarassment is part of the punishment. Sorry but your paymate's mom needs to hold firm and you need to stop blaming a 5 year old for doing what 5 year olds do... test boundries. You may want to start holding your daughter responsible as well instead of blaming her ADHD she needs to learn not to follow or she will be put in greater danger in the future just following others. I know many kids with ADHD and it is not an excuse for follwoing poor behavor she needs to learn to make good decisions as well.
It sounds like the child needs some IBI... Intensive Behavioral intervention. If She doesnt receive it... you are going to be sorry by allowing your child to continue to play with her. It is lax parenting when the mother waited to dicipline the child till later and was not obviously watching the timer well enough that the child was able to rig it to go off early. I would follow suit of the other mothers at this point. If not... pray really hard that the next time it is not some one that picks up your child and they dont return instead of the nice neighbor down the street.
