Negotiating and Asking for Exceptions Vs. Following the Rules

the question is too vague to get good answers.
sometimes you have to and should suck it up and follow the rules. and there are also appropriate times to challenge the rules and make the creators of the rules explain their justification.
rules are necessary for a working society. but the population should not be sheep, and should constantly and thoughtfully question authority.
khairete
S.

So right Wild Woman! Make an exception for one then it snowballs out of control. If a group is 6-8 then that's the age. The 5 year old goes to his age group. If something happened to the five year old in the older group, guess who would be the first one complaining about the bigger kids being to rough, etc.

Rules are rules.

It depends on the situation. It's too hard to make a sweeping statement about exceptions to the rules. Sometimes it's in everyone's best interest to make exceptions. The world is not black and white and some rules just can't be enforced across the board.

Ok, I'm going to be devil's advocate here.

Since when is it best for everyone to simply accept what those in authority tell us without question? If a rule doesn't make sense to me, I want to know why it exists. Maybe there is a good reason for the rule, but maybe it's silly or arbitrary, or even discriminatory. Why should I accept that without question? Should Rosa Parks have made life easier for everyone by just following the rules and sitting on the back of the bus? Maybe if more people questioned things and thought critically for themselves, the world would be a better place.

For your specific example - maybe athletic groups should be set up by skill level and not age and gender. But if no one ever questions the rules, the rules will never change.

(I know I'm taking this to the extreme with the Rosa Parks example, but if we don't think for ourselves and teach our children to do likewise, our country is in trouble. And I'm not going to apologize for advocating the concept of thinking for oneself.)

Hehehe, I love your post.

But, don't you know, Everyone is "SPECIAL" these days?

Yeah, the rules are just not that hard to follow.

With every generation we are becoming more of an individualistic society.

:(

We encountered a similar situation recently. My daughter, who will turn 11 this week, is a ballet dancer. She's very dedicated, and has grown quickly (she's 5'6"), so people tend to think of her as being older than she is. Anyway, last spring we had a conference with her ballet teacher to review my daughter's progress. The teacher asked if my daughter was going to audition for the Summer Intensive program (which is a super-intensive camp for dancers). I responded that no, she would not be attending, because the required age to audition was 11, and my daughter was only 10. I did not ask for an exception because I knew what the rule was. She replied that they WOULD be expecting her to audition, and would make an exception for her age.

My daughter attended the Summer Intensive program and did very well. She had no trouble keeping up with the older girls.

A few weeks after that, another mom asked what we had done over the summer. I told her, and she became angry with me because she thought I had no respect for the rules, etc. She even went so far as to ask me if I had lied about my daughter's age! (What?!) Not that it was ANY of her business, but I set her straight. Bottom line, the teacher had made a decision based upon her professional opinion. Apparently my daughter is stronger and has better technique than most 10 year olds. Apparently this lady's daughter didn't. End of story.

Anyway, my point is, kids aren't robots. Sometimes exceptions make sense. I don't make a practice of asking for exceptions, but if one is offered to me and I think the situation would benefit my child's education, I will certainly take the exception that's offered.

They probably go by the thinking that 'It never hurts to ask. The worst thing that can happen is that the answer is no'. Sometimes rules are made that leave you shaking your head wondering what the rule makers were thinking.

Personally when I was raising my children we pretty much followed the rules for things. Class said ages 7-9 means the 6 yr old had to wait another year to take it. I think some parents want instant gratification for their children. I figured that giving them something to look forward to was more important.

This became the "rule" when parents decided that they could not tell their children "no" and society decided that we need to do all we can to make every child happy every minute of every day and no one's feelings should ever be hurt by being told "no." In other words, when the generation of entitled children were being raised is when negotiating became the rule rather than the rule being the rule.

Because not all rules make sense and they SHOULD be challenged.
Just think of the plethora of advances that happened because someone dared to challenge an existing rule in society or science.

Without people who refuse to accept the status quo we would still have slavery, women would not be allowed to vote and we would still think the sun revolves around the earth.

Challenging nonsensical rules doesn't happen overnight. No one wakes up one morning and thinks "oh, I really think women should be able to vote". Many of those who have broken "glass ceilings" started by challenging the status quo in their daily lives, they were THOSE people, the crazy women, the unconvenient people who just wouldn't shut up or sit down in the back of the bus. I mean how hard is it to sit down in the back of the bus, right? Such a simple rule to follow...

As for being "left in the dark" when you choose to accept the rules - well, that is a choice.
Challenging the status quo bears risks, sometimes comes with a price and there is always a chance of failure and repercussions.
There is nothing wrong about not wanting to take that risk - but you don't get to complain about being left in the dark. After all you could have chosen to take the risk and challenge the rule yourself.
Good luck.

Do you have an example? Your question is a bit vague.

What are you talking about? I ask for exceptions all the time, because my kids don't always fit into the bubble that is their age.

My son was 5 when we went on our cruise last year, 2 months away from being 6, and he is best buds with my other son who was 7. I requested they both be in the 6-8 age group and it was no problem. They told people they could request and all requests would be taken into account...we got lucky.

My daughter wasn't old enough to take hip hop when she was 7 (requirement is 8 at her studio) but the owner wanted her in there, so she took the class.

I don't see how those affect other people at all, and it worked for my kids in their emotional, mental, social, physical, and maturity levels.

So I guess I'm wondering why this bothers you?

For me, it depends on the reason for the rule and the specific situation.

Rules are guidelines, nothing more. There are always exeptions. It's the very nature of rules.

Do you have any examples?

The only time I have seen exceptions is when the rules are very rigid and exceptions are built into the rule book.
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So a younger child was allowed to play up and your child didn't make the team?

It was like that when I was a kid, nothing new.

There are sometimes some very valid reasons for rules and regulations and sometimes there are not. Sometimes you wonder what the "rule makers" were thinking when they came up with the rules. I have asked for exceptions when I feel it would benefit my family. Sometimes waivers have been granted and sometimes we have been turned down. Sometimes I have felt so strongly about a rule, that I have worked to change the rule (for everyone). (example: kids not being able to borrow textbooks to bring home to study).
Occasionally, I run into situations where someone just thinks they are too important or too busy to follow the rules and that does tick me off.-(complaining that their child doesn't get enough playing time when they have missed practice all week without a valid reason)

I didn't read all the responses, but did see several that mentioned people thinking their kids are so special they don't need to follow "the rules". I can say that I have asked for age exceptions for my child's activities. Not because I think he is so special, but because he is very young for his age and can't keep up with his peers in certain areas right now. If I put him with his age, I'm sure parents would complain about him being behind the other kids skill level! All kids in a given age range aren't equal. Sometimes parents and teachers know what's best for a child and ask for or make an exception. I don't see the problem.

It depends on what it is.

Parent can't get act together but wants coach to continue to allow child on the team without payment? No.

My friend's DD will be a bit younger than her classmates, but they felt she could handle the 3s class where there was a slot available. She will turn 3 after the school year starts. I think that's a valid exception.

The flip side is, if you ask and they say no, then accept it.

It also depends on if it's a safety thing or not.

I think that sometimes it's a personality thing. Have you met a teenager (especially a really smart one) who tries to do this? Everyone says "Oh, he/she is probably going to be a lawyer." Maybe those parents should have gone to law school. OR they spend their days as sales people and are used to other people trying to get a "deal" out of them, so they try to get a deal out of others.

Sometimes people need some flexibility. Probably, all of us have had that issue at one time or other...

OR, they think that they're better than others. Those are the most irritating people...

We watch stuff like this happen all the time in organized sports. Parents think their little darling is special, better and deserves to be treated differently then the others.

I think rising above it all is part of learning to play well. In our family you get what you get and you don't throw a fit. The parents trying to make everything perfect for their kids will get theirs in the end. Little Billy will grow up without realizing that the world doesn't bend to his needs.

Worry about your own child and unless this rule bending REALLY hurts him in some tangible way, let it go. Hurt feelings are part of life.

I know what you mean but I can see both sides of the coin on this.

Example: Class age range for a 4 week sport skill class (not competition just hand eye coordination type things) says ages 3-5 year olds...a child is about to turn 3 (sometime during the 4 weeks) but is technically 2 when it starts. You ask if the child can sign up because 1. he's a week or two from turning the correct age, 2. he's bigger than the other 2 year olds and not too small for this group, and/or 3. he's athletically advanced. I too may ask for my child while the outsider may say "why would they sign a two year old up". What about the child that just turned 6, they are technically too old for this group but if they just turned 6 (particually if they are small or have some delays) may fit in better here than with the 6-8 age group. In cases like this, it doesn't hurt to ask for what is best for you child (and push a bit if necessary) but you have to be willing to accept "no" and realize when what is best for your child may negatively affect others in the group (so those saying no shouldn't say no just because of the rule but because of it's affect on others...just as they shouldn't just say yes because it is best for one person).

Kids need to know that their parents will do the best they can for them and sometimes that means questioning a rule or two. Hopefully the parents will also teach them how to handle not getting their way because throwing a fit (such as another posted regarding a paint ball facility) can teach the wrong life lessons.

That annoys me too.

I don't really have any other answers. It's just something I've noticed around here.

I'm a gymnastics/cheer instructor and we are asked to make exceptions ALL THE TIME. I've gotten used to it so it doesn't phase me.

Sometimes it is justified and sometimes it is not. Sometimes I can allow an exception, sometimes I can't. I can sometimes allow a younger child into a class for older students, and sometimes I feel that it wouldn't work out. I take everything on a case-by-case basis. Rules are just guidelines in MOST cases--but not all. For example, in cheer the competition organization makes the age rules and there isn't anything I can do. If your little darling isn't the right age, I can't do anything about that! And yes, some parents have asked if they could lie and in that case I show them the door.

I agree that there are parents out there that think they are always the exception to the rules and they annoy me. For the most part, there is usually good reason if we bend a rule. I'd say the only two rules in life are death and taxes.

It sounds like you feel your child was treated unfairly somehow (?)
Just because an activity is advertised "ages 7 to 10" doesn't necessarily make it a rule, it could just mean it's suggested for that age group. Perhaps it's okay for a mature 5 or 6 year old, or an immature 11 year old.
My kids have only been involved in two activities where the age limit was set in stone, no exceptions, swim team and traveling soccer. The soccer club was SO strict we had to provide a photo and copy of my daughter's birth certificate!
Going forward, ask questions, and gather as much information as you can. You can't expect all rules to be hard and fast, learn how to tell the difference and you won't feel so left in the dark.

I am a teacher and it's a rare day that I am not asked to make exceptions. Mind you that this is not for my students with diagnosed special needs. This is the family that decides the second week of school is a good time for vacation. And the mom who thinks the first ten minutes of school are less important than bonding with her 12 year old over a latte every day for two weeks.
That said, there's plenty of reason why some rules suck and a way around them is not just desirable but fair. My cousin's youngest plays three instruments already (at age 7) but can't get into an after school music program because it is for grades 3-5. The reason given was that she wasn't mature enough to have the discipline to learn an instrument! My cousin sent them a tape and they wouldn't even watch it.

I have read numerous articles which say you are a stupid idiot (ok, not their exact words but close) to ever pay retail for anything and that everything can be negotiated.
This attitude has oozed into the rest of life. Remember what they called the people that were kids in the 90s - the ME generation.

I’ve noticed that classes may have a suggested age range but, due to other factors, such as skill level or size, the coach may put them in a class even when they are not the suggested age.