Dad tells them something and they do it. He rarely has to raise his voice. They only see dad evenings and weekends due to his work. When I say something, they don't listen well. I am with them during the day. Dad says I need to discipline and make them respect me, but my question is HOW?
Let me use the 6-year-old as an example (the other younger ones are really not so defiant at all). The 6-year-old initiates fights with his siblings or says mean things frequently, or hits. He is hyper (I think) and in the evenings crashes around the house wrestling and jumping. At school he struggles to stay focused and on green. Kids get hurt in my house when he wrestles, and sometimes I say GO TO YOUR ROOM TO COOL DOWN in a firm voice. I need to break up the chaos.
He does not go to his room. I ask again. I am very firm. I explain why. No response. Yelling until I'm hoarse gets to response. If I come near him (I have dragged him none too gently to his room before) he runs away. I can't physically take him to his room anymore, really, without injuring my back!
So dad is telling me I need to discipline and be firm. Well, I pretty much feel like a bear. It's not the mom I want to be. Believe me, I'm firm. Not a person I'd want to cross paths with! Asking nicely, asking firmly, or screaming at him gets no response. I take away TV time. Really nothing works.
Dad makes it look so easy! The kids listen to him. Since the 6-year-old gets out of control a lot (mostly in the evenings, despite my attempts to try to have him color, play, anything (!), I thought having him cool down in his room was necessary. TV will keep him pacified just fine, but he usually loses his TV time so in the evening he just goes nuts. Surely the answer isn't just to have him watch a lot of TV.
He is very active, does some sports, does a program after-school that he loves; it's mainly relaxing with friends and playing Legos or whatever (which cuts down on the sheer amount of hours in the evening he can go nuts at home). Food or no food makes no difference; and he gets a lot of sleep. He is well-behaved in group settings where there are no expectations to sit and focus. He'll do a lot of camp this summer with structure to keep him busy.
Right now he is screaming and crying outside my door because I told him I needed to look up what to do, clearly explaining that he didn't listen to me (for his most recent transgression). I told him he had to put back the expensive chairs he was moving all over the living room; it was too much for me to clean up and would get them all banged up. I just didn't feel he had to take apart the whole dining room set to play, and he lost it, said mean things to me, and then would not go to his room when I said I don't tolerate that kind of talk.
I feel like all we do is battle. So, I need some ideas. (Don't misunderstand, he's very out of control when dad is here too, but dad is always sending him to his room to cool down (a lot!), but he always goes when Dad asks). I'm basically invisible. I should add that after I wrote this, I found him downstairs writing a note that says "I only like Dad and I don't like mom."
Edit: I do say, Go to your room. I don't ask him, if that helps. It is very authoritative, not pleading. But he ignores it. It's become pleading, sometimes, yes. I've never gotten any response from him with any manner, really!
These are good responses. I will try to implement them. I would love for his answer to be "Yes, mom," when a request is made. But wow, we're not there yet. My girl child IS there, but the boys are more of a handful.
1-2-3 Magic.
It sounds like you use a lot of words when you are talking to him. They don't do well with that much input. It is too "pleading" and not authoritative. Also, you mention here several times, that you "ask" him to do this or that. Don't ask. That invites the response of "no".
Books are helpful, and I like the previous suggestions. Here's another title for you, "Taking Charge: Caring Discipline that Works at School and at Home" by JoAnne Nordling.
I also strongly recommend Faber and Mazlish's groundbreaking book on communication: "How to Talk So Kids Will Listen...and How to Listen so Kids Will Talk"; their other book "Siblings without Rivalry" could be very helpful.
One question: when you were talking to your son about the chairs and putting them back, did you offer some help in HOW he might continue what he wanted to do in an acceptable way? I ask this because if you are shutting him down with no alternative ('you can play this in the family room with the chairs in there' or "let's get out a little tent" ,etc.), of course he's going to be frustrated.
The other thing I want to suggest is having your son evaluated for any behavioral/hyperactivity disorders. I do not say this lightly; but you yourself have used the word "hyper" and this makes me wonder if there's an unaddressed need rearing its head here. Having some feedback from a specialist might help you and your husband to find out if the misbehavior/discipline issues are just due to parenting style/techniques or if there is a genuine unmet need going on. This is why I am hesitant to say "When he does this, you do X". What works, and is reasonable, for a typical child may not work for a child who is very spirited or who has special needs, and this needs to be considered. If you have read some of the posts from moms on this site, it's been mentioned that a child with hyperactivity issues can be very well-behaved at school and very difficult for mom to deal with at home. This is why I suggest this. Talk to your pediatrician about getting a behavioral evaluation if need be, and start there. Or find a parent support group in your area which will help you with the discipline piece and more. Good luck.
I found "1-2-3 Magic" by Thomas Phelan, and "Discipline for the Strong-Willed Child" by Robert MacKenzie to both be very helpful. But I would also strongly suggest seeing your pediatrician and asking about getting him evaluated - ADHD, ODD, etc.
In the meanwhile, how much POSITIVE feedback does he get from you? Does he ever hear about anything that he is doing right or what you are happy to see him doing? Does he ever get any one-on-one time with you or are the younger siblings always pulling for your attention too?
Sounds like my house, except the parent the kids listen to is ME. And I'm a stay at home mom, so the idea that they respect more the parent who is with them less doesn't hold water for me.
You've gotten a lot of good advice. I really like "1-2-3 Magic" and "How to Talk so Kids Will Listen." It sounds to me like you do too much explaining and you try too many methods of discipline. Asking, telling, yelling. If you're going to say it three times, why should he bother listening to you the first time?
I know my kids tune out when their dad keeps talking. That's one reason he has to ask more than once. He uses so many words, they're not really sure what he wants them to do.
When I tell my kids to do something, the only acceptable response is "Yes, Mom." Sometimes my son will question a directive, but I told him he first has to respond, "Yes, Mom" before he can ask "Why?" just so that I know and he knows that he's going to obey me regardless of my explanation.
Also, rather than saying, "Don't do x" I usually try to rephrase it to "Do y" instead. If they are jumping on the couch, I tell them, "Sit down" or "Jump on the floor." If they are yelling, I tell them, "Talk quieter or go outside" (as opposed to saying, "Too loud! Too loud!" which is what their father does).
Good luck.
Sigh. Had a longer, better answer but the computer ate it....
Good responses here about turning to a resource like one of the proven parenting books. It sounds like a plan and consistency is needed and those can provide both.
Just a couple of thoughts I would add:
Ever heard the expression, "Familiarity breeds contempt"? That's part of the problem. The kids hear "no" and "don't" from you all the time and the words lose any power. They hear these words from dad rarely -- and dad, who is not around as much as you are, is a more distant, less known figure, so he has more weight with them. Of course, you can't just spend less time with them in hopes they'll then listen better, but you do need to recognize that they take you for granted. If they hear "no" and "don't" less often it would help; do they, especially your very active older son, have places where they really CAN be active and crazy so he is not getting interested, for instance, in the expensive chairs?
Next, I would immediately do away with ever saying "Go to your room" even to "cool down." I know your son resists this. But when he does go, remember that you are sending him to his own special place -- with his stuff, his toys, his world. It's like a reward for his behavior, not a discipline; it teaches him that behaving certain ways can GET him time among his own cool stuff. (Even if he resists going, once he's there, is he really "cooling down" or is he just quickly distracted by his stuff so he's not even having to think about what he did wrong? Probably the latter.) So use time outs in a neutral and boring place instead, every time -- so he knows that if he does X, the instant and very consistent result will always be a time out. Try the end of a hallway, a bottom step, a corner, but it must be where he has no toys within reach or within sight, no TV he can see or hear even out of the corner of his eye, etc. Totally boring. He has to go there for the set time and if he gets up -- you must return him to the spot and the clock starts AGAIN. Repeating this over and over if he gets up is vital. I won't go into more details but see books by Jo Frost about time outs. (Yeah she was the TV "supernanny" but don't let that put you off; she is great on time outs but you will truly have to commit to toughing it out yourself until he learns that you really mean it when you say, "Time out.")
And as someone else noted: Do you catch him being good and praise him for it much? It sounds as if maybe he's such an active kid that you have a lot to do just to .keep up with him -- that makes it hard to stop the "what is he doing right now?!" mom mode and get into the "Wow, that was nice of you to say to your sibling " mode.It's hard, I know! But less "no," a space where he really can be wild without getting into the good stuff and more praise might help, especially if combined with a very consistent time out policy.
Your husband has to get on board with this whole idea and with the way time outs work, too, or your son will rapidly learn to play you and dad off against each other. If dad is just telling you, "Get tough" -- that means nothing. It isn't a specific strategy, just a general statement, and that isn't going to change your son's behavior.
By the way, since he seems to be wild in the evenings -- is he getting enough recess and active play at school? I notice you live in Michigan so maybe the kids can't get outside at school right now due to weather. But it sounds like he could use an after-school class at a "my little gym" type of place where he can do tumbling and otherwise burn off energy.
The hitting and wrestling and kids getting hurt -- those are troubling and do require a very strict time out combined with instant, non-negotiable loss of NEW things. Losing TV time does not seem to affect him enough so find something else that he will really hate to lose. Yes, he is going to keep saying "I like dad, not mom." But that is a price to pay -- for a while -- in order to curb some behaviors that are going to be bigger problems once he's in elementary school.
Because Dad say what they mean and mean what they say. Dad doesn't "chatter" in the eyes of the kids. They have a stronger male voice, that is how God made them, and women tend to have emotions in it at times that kids sense - I can always run back to M.---so it's the cry of most women and you're not alone, but you do have to be firm and consistent to get your message across.
Buy the "Love and Logic" books. Learn how to make your words gold.
I second Love & Logic. I have a friend with several children, all with different personalities, and she swears by it.
I wish Supernanny was still on. Great show and good advice on disciplining.
Time out has to be consistent. If he doesn't stay put you take him back without speaking. Every time. Until he stays put. And for his age in minutes. When he finally stays put and time is up, then you explain why, which is because he failed to stay put. He was put in time out because..... Then get an apology and a hug. He has to learn that whenever he misbehaves that's going to happen.
It's part of parenting. Consistency.
Last resort, a swift swat on the keister. I'm sure I'll get a lot of negative response from that, but it stops kids in their tracks sometimes. They don't expect it and it interrupts their tantrums.
I second (or third, or fourth, or however many others said it!) that PART of it (not all, though) is the fact that you're the one with them all day. You're the "usual" disciplinarian, so your attempts have less effect. I see this with my almost four year old all of the time. If I'm getting on to her, I see my teenage self looking back at me with attitude and irritation. If my husband gets onto her (when he's home, he's deployed at the moment), it's waterworks and apologies (basically for making him mad or disappointed). :) It's part of the gig.
I also second looking into getting a good consistent plan and making sure he has some "crazy time" somewhere safe and away from the other kids so he can get out that energy without putting others in danger.
I have read most of the responses. They are all super. Do make sure you catch him being good and tell him. If my husband walked around all day telling me that the house looks like a disaster, I would never catch up in the house and that my cooking was a waste of time (Just to give you the idea), I would not respect him and just walk away w/ some bad words.
So, try to catch him being good a couple times a day (no need to over do it). Tell your husband that from now on you and your son are going to play catch or play ping-pong for 15 minutes a day w/ no interuptions.
I am a parenting instructor, but, without being there it's hard to say!
A silly question. By any chance, does your husband say those things in front of your 6 yr old? If he does...Tell him to stop immediately.
Talk to your son ahead of time. After school, have a structured plan. And try to go outside w/ him so he can burn energy.
I have 1 spirited child...like your 6 yr old. If I say something to my child and she does not do it. My husband walks over and tells her to "carry through."
At times, we have had a family mtg to let her know what is to be expected. Mom and Dad are a team during the mtg. The mtg should not be all about consequences. We have a fun part, too.
1-2-3 Magic is a gd technique. If he will comply?? 1-2-3 Magic does not "allow" pleading. I show the video to parents...or see if it is on You Tube.
He is in some kind of power struggle with you. If this situation gets worse, do seek some kind of assistance. If your husband is telling you to be a better disciplinarian in front of him. Then, you two are not on the same pg in your child's eye. And from what you say, you are firm.
Yet, you should not be pleading to get him to listen to you. Something has broken down. I am not sure what it is exactly. It is not easy when this situation is taking place.
Try to go out to a class once or twice a week...at night !!! Do something for yourself. What you are going through is not easy by any means. You are with him more, and it is truly difficult at times !
