Daughter with BIG Personality

I did three sessions with a counselor and it was the best parenting move I've ever done. I changed my approach and went from being stressed about it to just accepting he's the way he is, and to not think it's (he) something I had to fix.

He saw the counselor on his own too. Very helpful.

Unfortunately I think he had felt he was being a bad kid, and me being stressed wasn't helping that.

He now gets positive attention instead of us all reacting to his moods.

My dd sounds similar more or less. I found that I can anticipate her hot buttons and prepare. We lay out clothes the night before, I actually put her clothes in the dryer at that age so they were warm when she put them on in the morning. Wow, she would get dressed with no complaining.
I also know she's cranky after school. I would prepare a snack before she got home and let her watch a video until the crankiness passed.
Punishing doesn't usually stop this behavior because sometimes I don't think they can totally control it.

I think counseling is your best bet. As a person who has had temper issues since toddlerhood I will tell you while punishing may deter some behaviors, it fails in teaching the tools needed. I am encouraged you are taking it from that perspective. My parents used spanking and shaming. I am not finding fault with them. As my mom jokes she says L. did everything I said a child of mine would never do and she did it before she was 3. They loved me and were determined to help me harness my temper. They did what they thought was best and I love them for it.

When I noticed temper issues with my daughter,(early toddlerhood) I knew I was going to approach it differently. She has a double whammy as my husband also has a fiery temper. I paid very close attention to my girl and tried to talk her through things when she was starting to escalate. It worked well for us and I used quiet time for her refuge. I used time out some as well, but quiet time was used when she could feel herself spiraling (or I noticed it) and it was a time she could go catch her breath in a different area and restart. I knew we were making progress when she got angry with my dad for something and said I need to have some quiet time and left the room. My dad was taken back, I was thrilled.

I think because you are adamant about giving her tools (great mom) it would be better to have a counselor involved for several reasons. One is you can't teach what you don't know. A counselor will be able to give you ideas and talk with her. Secondly, we live in a difficult world. Our kids face things that can be scary or hard to process. I wanted my daughter to know she had a person she could talk to if she ever felt like she didn't want to talk to me. We established that relationship when there were no major issues so she wouldn't feel like I was trying to "fix" her.

Thank you for trying to equip her for adulthood. Strong personalities are a good thing. Being unable to be in healthy relationships is not. You've seen your sister in law, you don't want that for her. Glad you're seeing the big picture and are taking action now.

It sounds to me like your daughter is very passionate, and that can be a huge asset to her in life.

Every personality trait has its good side and it, shall we say, not so good side (one book I read called it the "shadow side"). It's not bad. Her personality is not bad. We all have good traits, and we all have traits where it's more of a challenge for us to not negatively affect others.

I would back off on the punishments. She isn't being bad. Rather, she needs more guidance in how to respond when she is feeling strong emotions. That takes practice and patience and someone at your side. If she's having trouble with it at home, chances are she is dealing with it better at school. Personally, I think that's better, as she needs to be able to deal with things at school. Home needs to be the place where she feels she doesn't always have to be in control.

Look for ways you can help her learn. Rather than thinking of it as a "time-out" or "being sent to her room," can you think of it as taking a break? Even if she is playing in there, she is taking a break from being around people. That's a help! Sometimes she just needs a chance to be along so she can deal.

Help her find ways to deal and to cope. But make sure she knows that her personality is going to be a true asset to her. It is a good thing when used properly, so you don't want to squash it or give her the impression that it's bad.

B.,

You're trying to change your daughter. I get it. You don't want her to be alone.

What you need to do is take a parenting class for "spirited" children. You need to learn what she's going through. You don't understand how her brain is working. She needs therapy as well. She needs to learn how to control her anger and her feelings.

Until you get her counseling? You can start by helping her be ready for the day. That means setting the stuff out the night before.

Maybe record her so she can see her reactions?
Talk with her teachers and see how she reacts/behaves at school?
I would set up a meeting with the pediatrician - if you have recorded her behavior - so he/she can see what's going on and refer you to the right type of therapist. She might need to be evaluated for behavioral issues as well.

Good luck!

My dd has had incidents similar to yours, and I must say that counseling was invaluable. However, it wasn't simply counseling for her where she could talk through things. The counselor talked with all of us (meaning dh, me, and dd) and helped us develop plans for dealing with the tantrums or rage episodes. We were all accountable to the counselor, and she helped us develop a sort of script for handling the episodes. The counselor helped us focus, and develop a plan. She didn't excuse the behavior, or do a lot of talking; she helped dd understand how to develop self control and helped dh and me to learn what works and what doesn't. We needed an objective person to help us deal with our very complicated dd. We had an older son, and typical parenting and behavior methods worked well with him and he was a happy well-adjusted child, so we felt fairly confident in our parenting skills. Then along came dd and, well, not so much with the parenting pride anymore. We were lost.

We also found out that when dd was having a particularly explosive rage, she was low on sugar and protein. We found out that hypoglycemia symptoms can be mild, like feeling a little shaky, but in more extreme instances there can be symptoms such as being argumentative and combative. Those were our dd's reactions. She'd go right past jittery to combative. We learned to keep a small yogurt snack or can of Ensure around and we developed a plan where she'd drink the Ensure or eat the yogurt (with some honey drizzled on it) and wait a few minutes. The results were amazing. She was so much calmer after some protein and nutrients.

Don't stop trying to help your daughter, and don't hesitate to get some good outside advice. You might get a counselor, and perhaps a certified nutritionist (your pediatrician can refer you), since some foods, drinks, or certain ingredients can impact behaviors. You might have your dd evaluated for anemia, vitamin deficiencies, etc.

I think she sounds a lot like me. I'm a very emotional person. When I feel things, I feel them very deeply. When I get excited about things, I get very excited. When I love, I love deeply. (I'm a very loyal friend.) When I get upset, it hurts very deeply. It's harder for me to shake things off and let things go.

Over the years I have learned how to stay calm at school, at work, when I'm with acquaintances. At home, I'm not quite as guarded. I tend to be more relaxed and more myself. Sometimes, unfortunately, I take things out on my husband, just like I did my parents. My guess is that is what your daughter is doing.

You can't change who she is. That doesn't mean she is going to end up friendless, just like your SIL. Ouch! I have friends! You can help her a lot by teaching her ways to deal with the intense emotions she is feeling. She might need to excuse herself and slip into her room or a restroom or something to relax or calm herself. There is nothing wrong with that, and she should never be made to feel like it's a punishment. She shouldn't be punished.

I'm sure you have a personality trait that you are less than proud of. We all do. But the trick isn't to try and get rid of them. The trick is to recognize when they can be a strength and learn how to cope when they have the potential to really hurt us.

First, have faith in your kid that this WILL change. Punishment won't change it, trust me. (my parents tried to punish me into being good... it never worked, just sayin'... )

First, if you think there's something genetic going on-- find a family counselor. You need more help than you have on hand. Counselors are not an admission of failure, they are an admission that you are in over your head temporarily and your family needs another pair of eyes to help come up with some ideas which might work for everyone.

If you haven't read it yet, buy a copy of Faber and Mazlish's most excellent books "How to Talk so Kids will Listen... and how to Listen so Kids will Talk." I have found this book to be a gamechanger in how I work with my son.

(He is nearly ten and increasingly upset about every.little.thing.)

Sometimes what helps is for me to not argue, but accept his feelings in reflective statements whic validate his *feelings* but not his actions. "Yeah, I know you don't like XYZ.... sometimes it's really a bummer that we have to do that." When appropriate, I try to give a choice equal to his abilities while setting limits. The other night he was mad that I called him to the table. I told him " okay, you don't want to eat right now. I get it. AND I explained to you that dinner was happening. So, I think you can make yourself the rest of your food for today." I left his plate on the counter, husband and I had our food, and I left the room. I did not offer to reheat his plate, and when he had second dinner (he does, every night at 8, healthy choices only) he had to put it together himself.

I try to make the problem behavior Not My Problem by handing the choice back to him.

Feelings-wise, I cannot control what his feelings are, but I can control how I respond to them. My husband has been very sick and things aren't 'usual' around here. Yesterday Kiddo was mad about nearly everything. Anytime he started yelling, I dealt with it calmly. Sometimes that meant taking myself out of the room 'I'm really not wanting your company right now"..., sometimes that meant helping him with a little problem-solving. Sometimes that means, "yeah, I can see you are really upset, so what do you think might help?"

But the best thing I can do is keep my own cool, even when it means biting my tongue.

Maybe I'm overthinking this, but have you considered either a behavioral assessment or a neuropsych work up? Just to make sure that there isn't something else going on? I only mention it because it would really suck to find out later that it was a treatable issue.

I guess there are two schools of thought - one is that she truly cannot help it and all you can do is give her the tools to try to work through it. However, if the "tantrums" dissolve into kind of a situation where she absolutely has no control . . . I don't know how the tools would really work. The other is that she kind of has an excuse to behave this way - you mention it being "genetic." Which means that she really doesn't feel like she has to conform to societal standards, because she has an out of "it really isn't her fault, she gets it from her dad's side."

If a 9 year old's behavior is so unpleasant that it is wrecking everyone's morning, I guess I'd really see if there is something more going on. That way if it truly isn't anything, you can work on her behaviors and apply some consequences (I know you are, but perhaps a counselor could help you explore ones that would actually be considered a consequence for your daughter). If it is something else going on, then you can hopefully get some help getting this under control before she is older/bigger and the situations get more serious.

Good luck - it sounds like things are tough for you right now and I hope you are able to get something figured out.

This is a great example of how counseling can be incredibly helpful. With someone for her to talk to, she can get some feedback on her feelings and behavior and learn more satisfying and productive ways to handle those "big" feelings. And you and your husband can learn effective strategies for helping her.

My middle son, who will be 13 soon, sounds a lot like your daughter. I have no doubt that if he can learn to control himself and channel his tremendous energy and personality, he'll be able to do anything in life - and it's my job to give him the tools to channel all the strength and energy and use it to move forward instead of just creating chaos all around him. He has been in counseling for 4 months and it has made a huge difference. For his dad (my ex) and I, it's great to have someone who really knows him and understands him so that when we get frustrated, he can a) validate that he really is difficult and that what works for a lot of other kids will backfire with him and b) give us ideas that will actually work.

For example, my son has had a penalty problem in hockey for all the years he has played. He's not old enough to hit but would check other players anyway and was in the penalty box multiple times a game, sometimes enough to be ejected from the game. So embarrassing and infuriating, because his penalties were stupid and selfish and put his team at a disadvantage. His coaches needed him though so they wouldn't bench him. We would ratchet up the punishment at home, keep him out of games, etc. and nothing worked. The counselor came up with a plan for him to "earn" his way into a tournament (which was an investment of time and money for us) with good behavior at home, completed school work, and clean play in hockey. That was enough to "flip a switch" in him and although the tournament was in early December, the problem playing hasn't come back. Now that he's playing clean, he's playing better - he gets more ice time, he makes better plays, he scores goals, and he's invited to play up with teams that are older or at a higher level. We created a situation where there was a big reward for doing the right thing, and natural, positive consequences have been enough to keep it going to a point where he's a completely different (and much better) player. His counselor has been working with him on understanding that his triggers - power and control - come from not being the loudest or biggest or toughest guy in the room, but by exercising the self-control to get what you want, often simply with words and behavior. That true influence is subtle and longer-lasting than bullying. That by changing his own behavior, he can change the behavior of those around him. These are lessons that he wouldn't have been able to learn from us.

I can't emphasize enough how valuable counseling can be in helping a very strong-willed child learn to manage herself. I totally understand the desire to keep escalating the consequences in an effort to "break" the stubbornness. I can tell you from experience that it doesn't work - they are younger, stronger and less distracted than we are and when they dig in, they can just wear us down. You might win some battles, but you're both losing the war. Really stubborn kids respond much better to positive discipline and the ability to earn things. Sometimes I get tired of having to forever have an incentive plan in place (this kid has to earn everything, including the right to wear an expensive pair of sneakers that he just bought with his own money) but his counselor assured me that over time - and it might be a very long time - he will internalize these incentives and manage on his own. In the meantime, we have a much better relationship, he's turned around his behavior at home, school and on the ice, and I don't feel like I'm banging my head against the wall every day or fear that I'm raising an incorrigible narcissist or someone with BPD.

I should add in that we had a complete neuro-psych evaluation done and in addition to confirming his academic aptitude and areas of weakness, it confirmed that he does have ADHD and he does take medication for that. The medication definitely helps as well as it increases his ability to make better choices and reduces his impulsiveness, but it sure as heck doesn't cure his stubbornness and grandiose sense of self, which is where counseling comes in.

This sounds like my 8 year old son! I'm so sorry you're going through this. This has been very...not devastating....but disappointing and sad and hopeless...it's been h*** o* all of us. I too feel like something takes over my son, like a demon or a huge dark cloud. It's so crazy and scary and so sad. I can't believe some of the things he says and threatens during his rage. Breaks my heart....anyway 2 weeks ago it happened and as he settled down I just held and kissed him. I told him we were gonna get through this together and that we'd go talk to someone that could help us. I constantly reassure him that *we'll* get through this and not say anything's wrong with him etc. Anyway, we went to our first counseling session last week and have weekly scheduled visits, thank God! I thought potty training and terrible 2's and 3's were bad....that's nothing compared to this new problem! :/
Counselor told me to continue what I'm doing, which is tracking his behaviors, our activities, triggers etc. It's been helpful for me too! I've only been doing it 2-3 weeks but it's a really good idea. Another thing she liked is that I did role play with him. I told him he was me and vice versa....girl....after I acted like he does,including screaming, throwing, etc...he admitted he was SCARED! Hello! Me too! Then I modeled a better way to behave when you're angry, which of course included nothing harmful or violent and was more or less just pouting alone in his room. I don't know if it helped honestly but I do know that ever since I inadvertently scared him by using his actions, he hasn't done it anymore! So anyway, I'm glad I'm not the only one going thru this bc it's not something I wanna share, although I am sorry you're dealing with it. Call about counseling, check behaviors outside of the home like someone else said. I swear my son is perfection everywhere BUT home! Good luck. I'm hopeful about our situation and I'm hopeful about yours. You're doing a great job just don't give up. Reassure her frequently and just keep loving her. You can do this. Hang in there. Sorry for long post.

Here's my .02 cents as I believe I am one of those genetic beings of which you speak, I held it all in as a child but as an adult I've had to face it, my mother was WAY WORSE than me, so in a small sense I have learned a bit...but anyway, I also have a 9 year old (also going thru puberty) who occasionally is exactly as you have described yours, I appeal to her 'strong side' by letting her know I see her mood & asking her if she sees it & then working her thru it by talking & reflection. It sounds silly but it appeals. So she is a grouchy butt in the a.m. one morning doing that thing where everything is amplified and a deal (angry noises at the cupboard, or shoes or or or) and everyone else in the orbit gets forgotten about and doesn't exist. I try to see it as my job to make her aware that this isn't really acceptable and isn't polite and we can't transfer or effect others energy by our bad moods. I ask her to be strong and pull it together and remind her of some upcoming alone time/down time she has coming up and how she will have a minute to re-adjust and then before you know it it seems like I am always saying to her, see you've already ajusted, good job. And then it's over and you can re-direct back to the task at hand.

I am this way. And I am a work in progress.
I have found it's a waste while your in it in the moment of meltdown to try to find out the why or what it is that makes us this way, usually we need to be out of it to see it...if that makes sense. So you can address it later after time has passed and see if you can figure out what might have been behind it...bad dreams, bad sleep, built up stress, getting sick, worried about who knows what, so on and so forth but also may I suggest you be mindful that it's OK if sometimes she doesn't even know what set her off, sometimes we don't even know!

For what it's worth, I don't recommend therapy or counseling unless she is way more extreme & that's what you truly feel but I think she's pretty normal...implying she needs a professional to understand her own self can be just as damaging to a child depending on particular personality make up & it's hard work finding an appropriate GOOD therapist, you rarely score on the first try and kids shouldn't be put thru dealing with all the fruit loops who were drawn to getting inside someone else's mind.
~former child counseling goer.

This is exactly how my son was at this age. Exactly! He has a very strong personality. He is very sensitive to things and very stubborn. It seemed to get worse when in 4th grade he got a teacher who gave out a lot of homework. He would get so angry and frustrated. He didn't want to go to school. He would take it out on us. He was making the whole family miserable with his moods that he could not snap out of for hours. So, we had him see a therapist (child psychiatrist) who specializes in tweens and teens, anger, ODD, and anxiety. He ended up going weekly for about 2 years. The therapist first worked on bonding with him and he really liked her and enjoyed going. She gave off a cool/fun vibe but also was empathetic and they clicked. She worked h*** o* teaching him to take responsibility for his actions and behaviors. She worked on a lot of different things and had him practice different things at home. I don't know if it was the therapy or just our son maturing...it was probably both. But it helped a LOT. The therapist also met with me multiple times which was also very helpful. She taught me to let more things go (for one). I learned that punishment does not work with my son...in fact it makes him more angry. I learned to back off when things were getting heated...then to come back and let him figure it out and come up with a solution. I learned to not try to control him. Suddenly in 6th grade he was like a different kid. He is in 7th grade now and he is a great kid...he no longer gets angry, he no longer has tantrums, he is responsible for himself, he does his homework without me hovering over him, and is really an enjoyable kid. I really can't recommend therapy with a really good person enough.

She needs therapy to help her identify and work through her difficulties managing her emotions. Emotional regulation / sensory processing comes to mind.

So I would advise you find a behavioral therapist who works with children.

I don't know what would work for your daughter. But she sounds a LOT like one of mine, now 17. I will say it takes some maturing. My daughter also went through a period of depression and cutting. I am not saying yours will but one thing we did learn is that when a child has this type of reaction to everyday things, it can be an underlying indicator of later issues. Just something to watch for. I am keeping an eye on my almost 9 year old because she started throwing tantrums this past year over tiny things. Anyway, my older daughter has found ways to "vent". She draws and animates, has taught herself guitar, keyboard, singing and is currently working on drums, and is a track star at school. Her running is really her way of getting through things. We also have a really good relationship where she knows she can talk to me. That is very important. She needs to know she can come to you to talk without judgment and get your opinion or even validation. I would suggest finding something your daughter really likes and see if that helps.

My daughter is doing really well, has not cut in well over a year and is planning college for next fall.

Have her evaluated for behavioral issues.
Just because it runs in the family doesn't mean there isn't a med out there that might make it more manageable.
I'm sorry but 9 is WAY too old for tantrums and I think this is really a cry for some sort of help.
Please see that she gets some.
You need coping techniques and a professional (psychiatrist, counselor, therapist, etc) can help you with that.
Do it now - because if she doesn't get help before she's a teen - your family life is going to be hell - and her life isn't going to be any fun when no one wants to be friends with her.

I was very lucky that they had a free program for anger management in my school district and my son was in it when he was in 3rd grade. It worked wonders.