Contradiction of the Rpos

I think you can do both...because part of your job is to raise a child who can make good decisions. I have used many many of Dr. Dobson's parenting techniques. Because I am the mom and I am in charge. However, I give my children reasonable choices all the time to help the realize they have some choice and can make good ones. Red shirt or blue one? Do you want to bring your drawing board or your action figure in the car? And let them learn small lessons on their own and live with the consequences...I wouldn't take your happy meal toy into the play land with you, it might get lost. My son tells me he will be very careful...I say okay, but if it gets lost you don't get another one. After the first time we went home toy-less, he now likes to leave it at the table. You can teach them to think for themselves, but still be firmly in charge. They need you as the parent to be in charge.

{{{{hugs}}}}

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Here's my take: beware the pendulum swing. I had several friends who had very strict, this-is-the-law-don't-even-ask-why parents, and then when they got to college and there was no one looking over their shoulders anymore, went wild. My friends and I who had parents who encouraged us as teens to make our own decisions did not attend the wild parties or fail out of college.

Not that we did the wild stuff in high school, either. My mother did something very ingenious, I think, that I intend to do with my own daughter. My mom told me that if there was ever a situation that I did not want to be in or that I was uncomfortable with, I could blame my reluctance on my over-strict mother, who would back me up with no question. My close friends knew better, and knew what to not even ask me to participate in, but for friends of friends, it took peer pressure right out of the equation.

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Hi! My niece in Pennsylvania is named M.! I am also reading The Stong Willed Child right now. Dr. Dobson has an updated version out called The New Strong Willed Child. They are both excellent. He also has written many more such as The Parent Answer Book, Parenting Isn't for Cowards, Bringing up Boys, etc.

I believe the difference you see in Dr. Dobson's methods stem from his world view. Dr. Dobson is a Bible believing Christian. He doesn't see children as a blank slate that we as parents and society write upon. Instead, he believes that each child is a unique creation of God, with individual personalities and giftedness, as well as an inborn sin nature at birth. This sin nature is in all of us, and is why we are separated from God unless we believe in Jesus Christ, who's sacrifice on the cross covers over our sin so that we are righteous in God's sight and can then have a relationship with Him. Dr. Dobson asserts that it is our job as parents to help the child develop his or her God-given potential while teaching them to place their trust in Jesus Christ's sufficient sacrifice, so that one day, they will be a new creation, wholly and pleasing to God. This is not of ourselves, that we should boast, but is God's gift to us - to all who believe.

Because of this world view, Dr. Dobson doesn't believe that a child has the ability to self-govern themselves without external direction, as you say, because they are not yet controlled by God's Holy Spirit, which he sent to be our comforter and guide when Jesus Christ ascended into heaven. This Holy Spirit is given to us at the moment of Salvation, when we accept Jesus' sacrifice on our behalf.

If you'd like to know more, please visit Dr. Dobson's website at family.org.

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M.
I'm with you on this one.
I feel that we as parents set the boundaries. Children through their non-experience of life cannot be expected to carry such a burden. They are not "mini-adults" at all.
We decide what is best for them as parents, going by instinct (never underestimate a mother's instincts) as we know our children far better than anyone else, even authors of books and doctors. Then we guide them to that direction by everything we do and say, leading by example preferably.
I watched a TV program where a child would not go to bed and the parents had to return her 281 times! That just shows the forceful power that children have if given the opportunity. The next night the child fell asleep peacefully!
We have to direct our children..
All the best

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Here's how I understand things. At a very young age, children should learn to obey implicitly and without question. This is before they are able to understand the reason why. As they get older, you will be giving more explanations and helping them reason from cause to effect. There should be a transition so that by the time they are in their mid teens you wouldn't be giving any commands per se, but rather guiding them in making their own decisions, preparatory to full independence.

What we have going on here (with the contradictions) is the old pendulum effect. Back in the day (like, when our parents were kids), the authoritarian view was very strong, and kids learned to obey without question. The problem is that the parents didn't know how to transition the child into making their own decisions, and so many rebelled, as can be seen in the Hippie revolution. Then the more permissive methods of parenting came into vogue, with the resultant lack of control on the part of parents and teachers of the youth of our day.

So basically I would look at it like this. Children do have internal factors, such as a need to be loved and understood, but they also need authority in their lives. When my 22 mo is obeying me, she is very happy. When she decides to resist me, she is miserable. I insist she obey me, however, and she usually submits within a few minutes (because I try never to let her get her way when she is being obstinate). But that doesn't mean I dictate every move she makes. She is free to choose what to play with within limits (my sewing pins are not toys!), and other small choices. But only if she asks sweetly. If she asks in a tone that says, "You'd better give it to me or else!" then she doesn't get it and usually ends up spending some time in the corner, which usually has the effect of sweetening her disposition. :)

As she gets older, I will help her learn to think for herself. By the time she's 18, she should be able to live alone and I will have worked my self out of a job as a parent. I expect to treat her as an equal at that point. Of course, I will still have all the younger siblings (#2 is on the way now, and we want more), so should life will never be boring!

I hope this helps.

L.

I was heavily disciplined as a child...I will admit, too much so. I was raised to "do as I was told" and I did. That never meant that I didn't ever have my own thoughts. If anything, I rebelled against the notion that my parents knew best (It got me into some trouble as a teenager, but not real trouble). I later joined the military (they tell you what to do too) but I emerged immediately as a leader, not a follower. I also have a strong opinion...sometimes too much so, but I think that is because I feel the need to constantly defend my opinion now that I am "allowed" to have one. I think moderation is the key to any method.

I also think it really has to do with the temperment of the child. With my two year old for example, I have to give him choices (that I determine). If I try to tell him what to do, we will end up with a stalemate in our battle of wills...neither will give up and there will be a lot of crying and stomping...my son will behave badly too :)

Giving choices is also good for older kids because it does allow them to use reason in making choices. In the perfect situation there should be one bad choice and two other better choices so the child should become accustomed to ruling out the bad choice right away. This of course is great in theory, but kids will always surprise you...that's why my child contantly wears rainboots when it is sunny...despite my choice offerings he will go for his own desires. Good luck figuring out what is best for your little ones...I think we are all in the same boat!

I have never read the strong willed child, but I do believe that when I child is young, God set us as parents to guide and teach our child - with discipline and correction so as to develop their consciences. In the beginning of a child's life, you will teach him his sense of right and wrong. Either you will do it by neglecting to teach the child, letting the child think that they are all that is important, and therefor setting a very warped version of right and wrong, or you can teach them to obey, listen and learn, giving them boundaries and structure. When these children grow up, they will have responsibility, and will be able to slowly move toward making wise decisions for themselves as they move toward adulthood. If we, as parents, are not set in place to lovingly teach our children right from wrong, what would be the point of having parents at all?

Well, here's my take on it. I must admit I have never read the book, but from your comments this is what I think:
I have two very strong willed children under 5. My son is oldest and will be 5 next month (although you'd think he was going to be 35). I do not believe that a child this age can make BIG decisions about disciplining themselves only because they have no life experience to lead them on. Now, I do discipline my kids and TEACH them about right and wrong, BUT I am sure to make their options known. What I mean to say by this is: My son get's disciplined when he does something wrong, but he is very award of the consequences before he does this. For example, he loves to cut things with sharp knives, however, he knows that first he must ASK. His choices are: Get in trouble for not asking, or potentially cut his finger. He has done both! Now, this is not to say I let him "do what he wants", but you can only tell a child for so long, "don't touch the stove" and eventually the just need to get the concept that the darned stove is hot!! Now, how in the world to you explain "HOT" to a child that has never been burned?? You can't!! Just like you cannot explain the concept of child birth to a MAN, unless they have done it, they will just never know.
Now, other ways I do get my children to think for themselves? "Mom, how does this work?".... Me: "Figure it out... look around.. do you see a plug.. a switch... does it have batteries?" Then I make then LOOK at it for a moment and I walk away. This, believe it or not, REALLY works. They will sit down and figure it out. My daughter is afraid of spiders (shes almost 3). She screamed once and I picked up a stick and scraped away the spider web and then said "spider is gone" and walked away. Now, when she screams, I tell her to take care of it herself. She will search for a stick, broom, rake or whatever to handle the situation herself, she no longer wants me to take care of it. She thinks for herself, but, at first, someone had to give her an example of how to deal with this situation.

Now, with all this being said, I do lay off "external direction" per se to let the children learn for themselves, but they do still need guidance to determine the right directions to head. You cannot effectively parent (in my opinion) by just letting them fend for themselves (at least not at this young age) and where are they going to get examples from if you don't give them to them. Children need to be disciplined but need guidance to determine right from wrong, once they know, they can be expected (within reason) to make choices from there on their own and deal with the potential consequences, good or bad. This in and of itself is a learning experience and a method of discipline.

I hope this isn't confusing you, but it's my take on things.

I have not read Raising Children Who Think For Themselves, but I can tell you that Parenting the Strong Willed child was extremely helpful for me and I didn't find it outdated, but we took what we needed from it specific to our childs needs and issues. I always recommend this book because it helped us greatly, and believe me my son has no problem thinking for himself. I think it just depends on the individual child and situation. Part of both books may be helpful for you to design your own discipline plan. Take what you need and leave the rest.

Sometimes people get too wrapped up in what the experts think. That is why we have so many children today in schools that are not self-motivated, do not want to look for anything unless it's in front of their noses, gripe at any work (physical or mental), etc. A lot can't spell (thank you texting) and handwriting is horrendous. A lot of parents have little or no control over them.

What is your natural instinct? It's usually to guide, help, etc. Learning through experience has always been the strongest educational tool for all. A child does not have the mental capacity to think outside the box to solve problems, unless they are given chances and guidance.

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-A. Peace

Hi Moiriah,

Do you mean the Everything Guide to the Strong-Willed Child by Carl Pickhardt? I LOVE that book -- it has done SO MUCH for my parenting!! So much of it is SO SMART. If it is that book, I take it the thing you find old-fashioned is the part where you tell a kid to pick up their toys before they go shoot hoops, then stay in the room to make sure they do it? I have just been noticing that there is indeed a contradiction between his approach and, say, love and logic where presumably you point out once that the toys need to be picked up then say nothing, leave, and later gather the toys up to go in a basket in the closet or to Good Will, depending on how often they've been left on the floor. I think the power of Pickhardt's approach, like thatl of love and logic, is identifying what you can control. He just puts pressure at a different point in the system. he starts the book by saying parents come visit with their kid and there's a chair that spins in his office. Strong willed kids always get in that chair, and start to spin. First they do a little, then more and more. Parents give them dirty looks or say "don't do that, honey," and the kid keeps going. Then the doctor puts the kid in a regular chair that doesn't spin. End of issue. In love and logic you would presumably say "please stop or you may get hurt,' then hope the kid bumps her knee on the desk. I actually like Pickhardt's approach better. Some of the stuff about letting kids learn through experience relies too much on all bad choices having bad consequences, whereas many bad choices are just annoying. I know that that is when we introduce our own consequences, but it seems great to just stop the problem behavior when it's right there in front of us -- why not? It's not like kids won't make plenty of other bad choices that we are not around to see, with loads of natural and parentally-imposed consequences.
So that's how I put it together -- I do ask my kid to do things now and then make sure she does them before she can move on to the next thing. When I don't, she learns that I am just a little voice in the background like Charlie Brown's teacher. She learns my words don't hold. I don't get bad or treat her disrespectfully, but once I've said it's time to brush teeth, put your dish in the sink, or pick up toys, I do my best to make sure that really happens. And when i say "stop," make sure she experiences STOPPING.

Good luck!
M.

I am a mother of 5 grown children. I wish I had Dr. Dobson the whole time they were growing up. He has such wisdom! It is great you are looking for help. Parenting is a difficult job. I do agree that children have no internal factors to direct them--they are totally self absorbed. Although example does play a part in the learning process, I don't believe it is enough. I had a child who had great difficulty ever getting beyond external influence---it was not fun.

Dr. Dobson's book is awesome. Kids are given parents because they are too young and inexperienced to make decisions. I use the book as a guideline and have built from there. It is your job to teach your children decision making skills by example, not by letting them "think" for themselves. Maybe that is why we have such a teen pregnancy problem. That is just my opinion. CB

You are correct - each parent makes her(his) own decisions about how much the kids get away with.
Some parents aren't too good at this. Others are experts. Many of us are stuck in the middle! We all want great kids who are contributing positively to society when they grow up. Thus many of the parenting books hit on one "problem" or another.
I think it depends a lot on the kid. We are born with innate characteristics, many of which show themselves by 1 year old. A stubborn baby is usually a stubborn 3 year old and again a stubborn old man! He is strong-willed and it will take a stronger-willed mom to raise him to govern himself. If Mom isn't sure of herself, timid or swayed easily, there will be problems. On the other hand, a less obstinate child (or a more intuitive child, if you will) may learn on his own by the reactions of friends, family, etc. and not need mom to constantly correct him.
I have seen this first hand between my sister and myself, both of us with bright, independent daughters who were very similar in temperament as toddlers. However, we have different parenting styles and you can see that in our now 7-year-olds' attitudes (heaven help us in the teen years!).

So, I think you need to read your kids right, and do what works for your individual situation. Books are great resources, as are other moms, and hopefully your pediatrician & specialists (if you have 'em). In the end, knowing you love them anyway goes a long, long way :)

Children need direction and example. Set the example and direct them when needed, which is alot. Dr. Kevin Leman has written many parenting books. Excellent, biblical, great. Make sure they are Dr. Kevin Leman. It is great that you are researching parenting info. Pray and trust your instinct.
Have fun. Parenting is such a wonderful blessing with it's ups and downs. Each child is different too. My three boys need disciplined in three different ways to be effective. So don't forget to study their individual personalities too. Hope this helps.