Seeking Advice - Marlton,NJ

I although my son is just under a year, I am a teacher. I recommend counseling. I also recommend you contact the school guidance counselor. They often have great references for outside counseling and may also be able to provide counseling in school. Best of luck.

There are times when one good crack on the rear end is worth a thousand words. The key is "one" and to have a clear conscience about it.

My son, who is almost 8, did the same thing for a while. He would hold his breath to go to Heaven and say that he wished that he hadn't been born. At first it greatly concerned me and I was going to have him evaluated. But since it hasn't happened for a while I haven't. No advice really -just wanted to let you know that you are not alone with this. However I will add that I have stopped yelling as much at them..at one point my son pointed out that "you don't have to yell when you ask me to do something" and that made me realize that I was in fact yelling-in anticipation of them giving me a problem. So now I only yell when they have been really out of line. I keep my calm and treat them with respect and it seems to work.

(Not sure what religion you are but in the Catholic religion is a sin to commit suicide and you will not go to heaven as a result. I had a discussion with my son about this and he seemed to understand this and take it to heart.)

Hi N.,

I know that you are trying to do the best you can with raising your son.

Sit down with your son and come up with some rules you expect him to follow.

Write them down together on a poster board.

Then ask him what consequences would be fair if you doesn't follow the rules.

When you son breaks a rule, have him sit down and answer these questions:

1. What happened?
2. What were you thinking of at the time?
3. What have you thought about since?
4. Who has been affected by what you have done? In what way?
5. What do you think you need to do to make things right?

This allows him to take responsibility for his actions and be held accountable. You don't have to do anything except to be loving and understanding.

Hope this helps. Thanks for asking. You deserve alot of credit because it takes alot of courage to ask for help.

Check the web for Restorative Practices at

www.iirp.org D.

Ask him what would the consequences be if he didn't do the expectations.

Then enforce those consequences. Get in touch with Super Nanny.

There is no need for yelling and grounding for a week is excessive.

He's doing it because it works. It takes the attention off his behavior and gets you to tell him how much you love him etc. Next time he tries it I'd say "Well, I'm glad you were born." or "Maybe the stranger would have an even earlier bed time for you!"

Then when he's not in trouble address what he was saying to see if there was a problem. Although he may see this as an opportunity to further guilt you.

Don't take the bait. You're right to be angry with his behavior. You can also tellhim that *whenever* he has bad behavior he will lose some privledge (no tv, video games, etc). Then if he does something you don't expect (like running off) when he gets back enforce the punishment.

Hey he's a smart kid, he knows how to work you, just don't fall for it.

Oh wow! Is he ever working you! Yes, this can be very normal. At age 8 he is getting into the pre-teen stage and the hormones sound like they're kicking in as well. This child knows exactly what buttons to push and he is pushing them good! He knows he has you right where he wants you and he will keep pushing the envelope because you're allowing him. The punishments you're giving mean nothing to him so he's pushing further and further. This is no time to be the nice guy cuz you may "hurt his feelings". This is hard ball time, cuz it's gets worse as he gets older at this point. Put your foot down NOW. This is NO game and he needs to know this.

When he ran off at the outdoor movie, this is a VERY serious offense. He is 8 years old and KNOWS he is not to do this. He should have been scolded and you all should have left immediately. Why should he be rewarded with a movie? It's more important to discipline the older one than to accommodate the younger one. Yes, the younger child would have suffered but this is the price you pay when you have more than one child. Don't be afraid that someone else may needlessly get their feelings hurt. Everyone pays in the family when ONE person misbehaves. And the ridicule from the younger child would have helped re-enforce what he did wrong. The child needs to hear you say that you WILL be angry with him sometimes, but anger and love is two separate things. He needs to accept that and not use your love against you. That's wrong and he needs to know that as well. Do not tolerate such talk of "going to heaven". You snap and tell him that he will NEVER say such a thing again because we all know it's to get attention. If he's angry, he needs to use those words, "I'm angry." He needs to be taught how to verbally express himself instead of acting out. He needs to be told immediately and firmly when is wrong and what is right. When you see that he reacts the correct way, thank him for that when you do talk to him. He needs a pat on the back when he behaves well, as much as a scolding when he does not. Do not let him play games with you. It's ok to be angry with him and let him know that. It's an emotion and you have the right to it as much as he does. There's a difference in being angry and reacting firm vs angry and beating a child. Also, when you explain something, keep it very short and to the point. "Running off is NOT safe. If will NOT happen again. We're leaving and when we get home you will go straight to your room and stay there." You can make it up to the younger one by taking them to a movie alone without the older boy. And his statement of being taken by a stranger than go to bed early, he knew exactly what he was saying. Do you think he REALLY meant that? Nope. He knew it would get your goat so he spewed out whatever he could to hit your giant guilt button. And it worked! He has you talking nicer to him because he says you yell at him too much! LOL Of course he thinks you yell too much. Most kids DO think that way. I could yell at my hormonal teens once in an entire week and the drama comes out, "You yell at me all the time!" LOL Um, ok, that one time must have been brutal, lol!

Don't let the child work you.

Set your rules down firm
stick by them
it's ok to be angry
anger and love are different (you're angry, you still love)
react immediately
don't tolerate guilt tactics
be aware of manipulation
mom and dad are on the same page
you're a family/team
feelings get hurt, it's part of life
tough love (you're tough, but fair)

K. B
mom to 5 including triplets

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HarrisburgPAChat
chat and events within 2 hour radius

First of all, kudos to you -- for applying consistent consequences when he misbehaves, for trying to remain calm when your heart was probably beating out of your chest, and for keeping open the lines of communication with your son.

Secondly, I suggest having more "heart to hearts" with him when you are both in good moods. Talk to him about what he said and why (to figure out whether he really wanted to die or was simply trying to get a rise out of you), about why there are rules (the risks associated with behaviors that aren't permitted), and what the consequences are (I like the suggestions of working with him to identify these, and trying to keep them as logical as possible, e.g. removing him from the situation causing the problem, taking away the item causing the problem, etc.). You also may want to explore when - and by whom - he feels that someone is "yelling" at him. Does he over-personalize things or is a teacher or other adult particularly tough on him? Does he agree that these occasions are warranted? How would he prefer to be treated (which is a great time for a discussion about how that is a two way street - does he talk to you and others with respect and respond properly to your requests?)?

Thirdly, you and your husband are the ones who know him best and should determine if you are really worried about him. Step back and look at patterns of behavior and how they've changed. Also, how have his relationships with others changed? Are these comments the only things that are bothering you or are there other worrisome trends? Trust your instincts - they are especially powerful in a mom. You will do what's best for him :)

Every situation is different for every parent and every child... but the one thing I can tell you is:

If your child "likes" you - then you're not being firm enough. If your child dislikes the fact that you set boundaries and keep them - then you're right on target. Kids his age are going to say things and act like that in order to get your attention or try and get you to back down on your punishment. They test you when they're 3 and they test you when they're 8, 13, 17 and so on.

I'm not saying you should do things to your child to encourage him to dislike you, don't take my first comment the wrong way. I'm just saying that it is not your job to be his friend or to make sure that he always "likes" you. It is your job to keep him safe and teach him right and wrong and unfortunately that is a very difficult job with not so wonderful ramifications all the time. I think you're doing a good job. It is good to talk to him about his feelings - but that doesn't mean you should ever back down on a punishment.

Good luck!

OK, Yay moms who know better than to let this throw them off!!! And yay to you for enforcing his punishment, though I agree with the ones who say it wasn't harsh enough for him running away into a crowd. And I too would have made everyone leave in addition to his harsher punishment so that he thought twice next time. He wasn't taking you seriously and did something dangerous because of it.

A family is a group which needs to work together. Sometimes other people take the fall for one persons misdeeds if it's impossible to isolate that person at the time. Learning you are responsible for more people than just yourself is valuable. My dad -and I say dad because he would have done WAY MORE THAN coming to talk to me after my mom and way more than sending me to bed early for a week, my mom wouldn't have had to lift a finger on this one, knowing she would tell my dad was enough for us to mind my mom...actually, this never would have happened in our house because my brother and I would have been way too scared to pull something like that with either parent. And threats of suicide while complaining of getting yelled at?!?! I THINK NOT!!!! We would not dare say such a thing. If anything, you're a little too nice to him and so is dad.

You need to crack down on his levity for this when you are not in a discipline episode. Like having talks about how nothing would be more devastating for you than if he ever did something like that, or if anything ever happened to him, and saying that is a cruel thing to say and will not be tolerated. Give him a real lecture on suicide with examples so he knows you know more about it and he's not shocking you. Let him know he is not to joke or make false threats like that EVER. And they ARE false threats. Because he is specifically telling you he's saying that because you yell too much. This would not really make him suicidal. MOst kids who commit suicide, do not threaten that way, and have much deeper angst than getting sent to bed early and yelled at.

But OK OK OK, OF COURSE, you should take all the precautions any parent needs to in being close to him, listening to him, watching for any clue of depression etc. but these verbal rebellions to you are disrespectful and he is majorly pushing your buttons.

OK, Dad. He's a boy. You should be the primary disciplinarian here if you're home.

Do not let this boy regulate your discipline of him with guilt. Continue to be close, loving, positive, involved, and when he needs firm discipline, do not fail to give it. Saying things like, 'I wish a stranger took me', etc in this case is basically smarting off. A second offense to the first. Increase discipline when this happens so he learns not to shoot peanuts from the gallery when he's being disciplined.

You can appease yourself and do him a service by increasing privileges and manly responsibilities for him other times when he's not acting out. Let him earn your praise and be generous with it, you want his self esteem and confidence to build, But DON'T shirk the discipline. You're doing great, do even more.

if this is the 1st time, don't worry about it too much. Sounds like he trying to get attention for being bad and how much he can push your buttons. All kids will say that to their parents to make us feel guilty.

If this keeps happening then see a therapist of some kind with your son.

My suspicion is that this is probably age-appropriate, that he's not REALLY thinking about killing himself. I remember being that age and "trying out" whole scenarios in which I died, my parents died, etc. I have since read that its a normal way of "rehearsing" for different eventualities. But this is just my thinking, and I am NOT a trained professional.

Is the otherwise depressed or acting out? I think you should really consider his overall behavior, mood and demeanor. If this is an isolated incident, something he says when he doesn't want to be punished, you should address it as such.

Maybe you could call his pediatrician for a more professional opinion.

I did like the advise that Barbi W gave, to let him know that you love him and growing up is difficult, etc. Maybe this behavior is trying to tell you he's ready for a little more independece...?

Hi N.,
My thoughts are mixed with this one,
I have a son now 14 and have gone on and off with this behavior.Usually thru mental growth spurts he would always become rebellious. He would threaten not to go with us somewhere if he did not get his way or he would not want to eat a food if it was not what he wanted. I would threaten him back saying that he should just stay home alone in his bed all day or not to eat anything and that would usually work pretty fast in changing his behavior.
Your son is using his most valuable tool to get you to go soft. The feeling that he wants to desert you and how you will feel. He knows that upsets you alot so he knows you will soften up with the punishment and then he can take a chance with risky behavior.
My only concern is about using the holding the breath ,or never wanting to be born.You never know when a child of that age may have early signs of some mental illness. I would like to think that he is like most boys his age and knows that he has found your soft spot.

The only way to see is next time he is punished tell him that this is his life and that you love him very much but if you want to hold your breath it is not pleasant but I cant stop you.basically try to ignore his threats and do not go soft on him. If his behavior changes ,which it should pretty fast you will know there is no problem but if he continues with the threats and nothing else works you should talk to his Dr.

Goodluck!
L.

I've never experienced this, but if this were my son I would be concerned. Please talk to your doctor and look for counceling. I do agree that kids need to follow rules and accept concenquences when rules are broken, but this seems a little more than acting up and not wanting to be grounded. Good luck!

Hi N.. My son is 10 and has done similar things to me. He gives me attitude and does things half right and then gets upset when his father and I correct him. We've sat him down and talked to him about the seriousness and finality of suicide. Sure, he might be acting over-dramatically now, but if you don't address the situation now, what will you have waiting for you down the road? Unfortunately, someone I knew committed suicide about a year ago. I went to the funeral and when I came home, I explained why there was a funeral for this man. I explained how he felt there was no one to go to. And at the funeral he had all these sad friends and family and his mother and father. That he really did have people that cared for him even though he wasn't perfect and I'm sure got in trouble at times. I explained how now it's a final thing. He can't un-make that decision. I think in this day and age if your child shows any sign of suicidal talk, you should address it immediately. If you talking to him about it and explaining the reality of it doesn't stop him, then I would suggest taking him to a councilor. Maybe a youth leader at church or ask your child's doctor if they can suggest anyone.

Good luck. I'm sure he's just overreacting to make a point and make you feel bad, but I don't think you would be overreacting to take the next step. I've seen too many people in my area think there's nothing left for them....and one was a young girl around 12 years of age. Now her future is gone.

N.,

Have you thought of family counseling? I know the suicidal talk is normally a teenage thing, but the experts tell you not to ignore it then, and I wouldn't ignore it at this young age either. He sounds distraught and in order for him to resolve it...he needs to process whatever it is that's bugging him. At this young age, it may take some probing to find out what it is. He may not even truly be aware of the issue himself, but there's something. Have you had any major family changes lately? Birth, death, new house, new school, serious illness. job change, schedule change or anything? I would take this seriously.

I'd say he's being a bit dramatic, but I'd also say that you are being rather dramatic, too. how does an early bedtime relate to disappearing in a crowd ?

If he doesn't get enough sleep and is grouchy all day, then an early bedtime makes sense.

Try a little instruction BEFORE an incident, like, "when we get out of the car, I expect BOTH of you to stay right next to us." And decide who is going to stay with whom before you go into the crowd. Have a plan for what to do if you get separated.

When it all works as it should, praise everyone, esp, thank your son for staying in contact the whole time. It's important.

If his disappearing in the crowd was important enough to punish, then it's okay to punish the whole family. If he'd been taken from you by some wierdo, that would have also punished the whole family, right ? And then when you went back to the movie a different day, with JUST YOUR DAUGHTER, he'd have certainly got the hint that he couldn't go to the movies if he couldn't stay by your side in a crowd. Our behavior DOES impact all of those around us, for the good or for the bad, and while it isn't fun to get disciplined for someone else's bad behavior, that is also a fact of life. When someone decides to drive 90 mph and crashes into another car, it DEFINATELY impacts other people even if they were driving carefully.

That said, I have raised 4 children and have never grounded one of them. I haven't sent them "to bed" early, either. I have sent them to their rooms if they can't behave in an appropriate manner in the public areas of the house, but I haven't ever grounded them because it also grounds me. And I can't see the point.

When he says he wishes he had never been born, you can say, "Well, I'm glad you were born, because I love you, and I would have a big hole in my life if you hadn't been born." Or, you could say, "Growing up is kind of hard, isn't it ??" You can let him know that you have to follow rules, too, for instance, if you and he went somewhere together, and you hopped in the car and drove way, how would he feel? How would he get home? It's important to behave appropriately. He's angry with you, and he's lashing out, and that part is at least honest. When he says that kind of stuff, however, get down to the real issue. He's telling you he's not happy with the punishment, but he's also angry because he can't seem to measure up. Be sure he knows that he measures up and that he is truly loved. Growing up IS hard. When he sees something he wants a closer look at, it's okay to go over and inspect it, but he needs to learn to FIRST get mom's attention, and tell her he wants to go see it. And when he does that, MOM needs to pay attention to him, and all of you need to take a break from whatever you were going to do, call a quick time out and GO OVER and see it together. Let him share with you his experience of why he wanted to get a closer look.

the more he is able to interrupt your agenda, and see that you are willing to accomodate his requests, and his inquisitiveness without having to sneak off and run away, the more he will include you in his discoveries. And you will both be TONS happier !!!

Hi N.,
I do not have very much experience with this, but I felt compelled to respond. My daughter is only two and half, but I do work with children around your son's age when I assist in classrooms. Part of me wonders if your son is seeing behavior like what you described from other children (perhaps at school or on tv). But another part of me thinks that something is bothering your son and his behavior is his way of dealing with it. When my sisters and I were around that age we all showed signs of emotional stress through our behavior. I remember saying some harsh things to my mother, seeing my youngest sister pull out patches of hair, and other strange behaviors that I now think were really cries for help. Our father was not involved in our lives and my mother was working very hard to take care of us, so our behaviors were related to the issues that stemmed from that. Maybe something is bothering your son that even he does not understand because he is so young. As I said I have no professional experience with this, but I would recommend spending some extra quality time with him, talking calmly with him, and looking for some reading material or even a movie that relates to this that you and your husband can read or watch with your son. His teacher/librarian might have a good recommendation for this. Most importantly I would just make sure your son knows that you and your husband are there for him and although you don't love his recent behavior, you still love him unconditionally. I hope this helps a little :)

I think it would be worth a call to his doctor or a child psychologist to see if this behavior is normal or grounds for intervention. Like the other moms, I can't decide if I think it is serious or just (pre)adolescent angst. He seems young to me for this kind of talk, but I'm not a professional. I'd check with someone who is.

I'm glad to see that things are getting better for you and your family. If you are still looking for someone to talk to, I highly recommend Brandi Davis. She is a child and family coach. Her website is http://www.childandfamilycoaching.com/