Lies, Lies, and More Lies

Is lying the real issue, or is she lying to cover up a different problem, like poor money management and compulsive spending? Usually, we lie so we can avoid some negative consequence. Is she earning her own money? If not, perhaps she needs to in order to see why she needs to control her spending. She might need to learn to budget and have some hard consequences as a result of not having the money if she spends it irresponsibly (like buying too many shirts when the money is needed for a car payment)- having to work instead of going to college, paying rent or not having a place to live, buying groceries or not having food to eat, etc- tough love, but at 21, she needs to learn, or she will only find herself in deeper trouble later! I am interested to see the other advice- and by the way, if it is compulsive spending, she may need help with that one, rather than counseling for lying.

Good luck!

It's time to cut the chord with some tough love. She's 21 and an adult, although it sounds like an irresponsible one. Some of life's lessons for some people are learned the hard way. I'm not saying to kick her out on the street tonight, but give her a month to get a job and her own place, or start paying you room and board like the rest of us here in the real world. Is Dad around? This is better if both parents stand together. It sounds a little like you are enabling; admission is the first step in the right direction.

Perhaps you should set her out on her own, with a job that pays for her own place, and let her get a taste of life away from the parental nest?

Ok, I have a daughter fixin to be 23. We have been raising her son since birth 4 year ago. Since she was 18 she could do it on her own and did not need our help. EXCEPT about every 4 months when she had overdrawn her bank account, rent was past due by a full month, electric needed paid, cell phone was 2 months past due and had not made a car or insurance payment for 2 months. Then she comes home. We pay off her bills get her all caught up with rules for doing this. I take all paychecks and half goes to pay us back the other half in savings, I give her just enough for gas and 10 a week for junk. Once I get paid back and she has money in the bank she picks a fight moves out and for the next 3 months we hear nothing. Then the phone again. You can ask her where all the new stuff comes from and someone always gives or buys it for her. Lies about the hours she has worked and even that other people steal her tips at work but nevr steal from other workers, they all hate her. She will spend every last penny she has knowing she has bills to pay. Then back home we come. Now we have been playing this game since she was 18 and we keep playing it because she holds the baby over us. Basically we pay all her bills every three months or she will take the kid from us. If you told this to a psych. they would say bi-polar, but when she goes to see one she acts so very well they say nothing is wrong. I finally got legal custody of the child and put my foot down hard. She had 1 week to find a job, 2 months to save enough for her own place and i did not help furnish it because we did in the past and she gave it all away we she was broke. She is allowed to come for visits and we invite her to go eat. No moving back in I don't care what the excuse is. If she misses one car note or insurance payment the car is mine till she can pay all back payments and insurance up to date. Tough love. It tears me up as a mother to see her go hungry but I get angry when she is starving but has new clothes and cd's, I let my anger keep my emotions and instinct to help in check. Set a standard and rules. Lay out clearly what will happen if they are broken and no matter what stick to it. This will show the other children now that you are serious and will follow through and after a couple of times being kicked out on her own she will start to come around. And by all means call her down and show your proof everytime you catch her lying to you. Remeber you are not doing anything to her she is doing it to herself and let her know this up front. I tell the other kids this all the time. If I say you will be in my house by 11 pm or I lock you out and you dont come home till 11:30 you chose to be locked out. Not my fault. If I say you have 2 weeks to find a job or I will put your things in the driveway and you chose not to look for a job it is the same as you saying I want to move out of your house and be homeless. I am not throwing you out in the street you chose to be there. Never feel guility for following through. If you lay out the rules and what will happen if they break the rules then they chose that if they do break them. It is not like you came up with a punishment out of thin air. If they scream and yell how could you do this to me explain again that you did not do this to them they did it to themselves. I have gone behind her back and check with places she said she applied they will tell you if she put in and application, most managers feel for you as a parent.I know this is long but thought maybe if you heard from someone else it would help a little to know you are not alone. TOUGH LOVE is always tougher on the parent cause our kids know it all. Good Luck

P.,

After reading what you wrote in the "What Happened" section, it seems that your daughter LOVES clothes and very much wishes she had more clothes. If clothes are the ONLY item she shoplifts, I believe it is more than just shoplifting for the thrill (that's why people do it - for the thrill) - it's because she loves clothes.

Here is what I think you should do - I don't believe she can handle living on her own right now. She doesn't have the sense of responsibility, and forcing her to be out on her will not make her responsible. She has to be somewhat responsible BEFORE she moves out. She should continue living at your house, but I think she should get a job (full time or part time) at her favorite clothing store. This way, she will get a good discount on her favorite clothes! I also strongly think she should continue her college education. Sign her up for a local college (obviously not the one she got kicked out of) and have her take classes in the morning or night (her classes will be around her work schedule). If she loves clothes so much, peraps she can major in fashion?? Try to turn her bad habit of steaing into something positive! She does need counseling, though, so she will never steal again. She is too old to be punished -just HELP HER!!! Keep trying different therapists until she finds one she likes. Don't give up on your daughter. Just be there for her and her shoplifting problem and do whatever it takes to rid her of this problem. Since she seems to be obsessed with clothes, I really think she would enjoy being a manager at her favorite clothing store someday (or a buyer). Focus on her interests and best of luck!!!

How about letting her know that you love her very much and giving her 60 days notice to find her own place? She is 21, working, and has a car. She is not in school and isn't married or a mom yet... this is a great time for her to be on her own. If you can come across like this isn't punishment... it's just time for her to move out. (She can come over for dinner on Sunday or whatever is a weekly family tradition) Before you give her the push out of the nest, make sure she knows you will not bail her out if she is arrested for stealing or any kind of fraud (lying). [Do not bail her out for any reason.]

You can be genuinely empathetic about how sorry you are that she is struggling with her integrity and still give her notice to move out.

Why? You have little children in the house watching the lying merry-go-round and this isn't good for them- or you. Sounds like the little ones still have character that can be shaped at home.

It's more stressful for you when you can watch your kid "crash and burn." I think you need the distance in this case to let her make her choices and the consequences occur. Step out of the way and let God deal with her directly. You can inflict punishment, but consequences are better teachers. Since you've raised her with godly values, she will most likely return to her core faith after some rebellion. (I rebelled in college, not high school. It may be rebellion since she doesn't seem to lie all the time)

I have a family member who doesn't act responsibly unless she has to. By that I mean, if she lives with my mom, than she expects mom to babysit her kids, cook, do laundry, loan money when she is broke, etc.... and, yes, she works and pays for her own car. (She's on her own now and is doing better than ever.) Your daughter may do the irresponsibility with lying,buying, stealing because she knows she has a safety net.

You can offer to pay for counseling since she will be on her own and might not be able to afford it. You can also offer to find her a budget counselor in case that is more of her problem. Brenda Haley in Corinth/Denton is awesome, but I know there are several great ministries for this. (Just remember you can't force her to go to either counselor... only invite her as a gesture of your genuine concern for her character and well-being.)

Your are not giving up on her by having her move out. You are sending the message that you find this behavior so alarming that she needs to be out of the house. You are sending the message that you will protect your children from her since it is currently necessary. You are sending the message that you love her and want her to get counseling.

You can read more about what I mean in "Parenting with Love and Logic".

edited after reading your update...

it's important to realize that your daughter is 21 years old! she's a grown woman. i'm assuming the Bible college to which you refer is a Christian Bible college. that being said, being Christian doesn't make us automatically little Christs! unfortunately, being 'of adam,' we deal with flesh tendencies to try to get our needs met apart from seeking to have those needs met by God. it's a daily walk, a daily dedication to abandon those flesh tendencies. we need to know who we are 'in Christ,' we need to believe who we are in Christ, and we need to present our knowing, believing selves to God as being nothing without Jesus. no need can truly be met apart from Him. whatever your daughter is getting from lying, whatever needs she is seeking to fulfill from hiding, buying, whatever, should be abandoned for God's doing, for God's fulfillment. He is faithful; we just need to lay it on Him! and these ideas (from Romans, btw) are something you can direct her toward, help her see, discuss with her...but not something you can do for her.

helping her face up to reality and consequences is not giving up on trying to help her; in fact, it's quite the opposite. like you said, marriage would not be a good place for her to learn those lessons...what better time and place than 'the here and now' at home?

I've been there - OH have I been there. With me, it was my son. If there are no consequences from the person she is lying to, don't expect a change in behavior. I had to make sure my son clearly understood his consequences. For example, if he spent all his grocery money on partying with his friends there would be NO GROCERIES! If he spent all his gas money, there would be NO GAS for his truck and he would be walking to class. As a single mother, my funds were limited and he drained my savings in one year of college before I finally got wise. He is now 26 and doesn't lie to Mom!!

P.,
You are a great mother and although we don't stop being mom when they reach 18, we do need to step down a little. Make her more responsible, she's 21 years old? Okay, she helps out with the kids, however, if she's going to live under your roof, make her pay her way if you don't already, she got kicked out of College, well, she needs to be responsible for her actions. If she doesn't pay them back, it's not on YOU, if she goes to Jail for not paying it back, it's not on YOU! None of us want our children to be in trouble but we can't bail them out all the time, that enables a "bad" behavior. If she wants to buy clothes instead of paying bills, well, make it hard for her so she becomes more responsible. I know I sound hard, but it's for everyone's own good. She's 21, not 12, she's an adult now, telling her she can't buy clothes, that's not the answer, make her pay her way... what she does with her money is her business. I wouldn't give her any money, and I would make her pay some sort of rent, and bills. If she can't pay it, well, maybe she should live somewhere else... If she wants to go to counseling well, she can pay for that too. If you don't want her to lie, I'd make it a rule in your house, that lying is wrong and if she feels she can't control it, then you want her out because you don't want her to teach her sisters this bad habit.
I'm sorry to sound so harsh, this is just my opinion.
Lastly, pray for your daughter, never stop praying!
God Bless!

It sounds to me like she definitely has an underlying problem...I would have to look at what she stole and why...and where did she get the money to buy the new things (you mention she had the receipt, so she did not steal the new shirts.) Is she using credit cards to make purchases? Did she steal in order to get cash to pay her credit card debt? These credit card companies are master manipulators and they offer these cards to college students...and it is way to easy and way too tempting to stay out of trouble for young adults who have never had this freedom. If she is not going to go back to college, then she needs to get a job and start paying off her debts, and also pay you for her room and board. If you're OK with her paying some of that in babysitting, that can be a part of your contract with her. Take her to Consumer Credit Counseling and one of their debt counselors will set her up on a budget and show her how to stay within her means. I've been there, I know how quickly this can escalate.

I complety agree with melanie, as I read your question, I thought it sounded like you were talking about a teenager, andnot just in the way she's acting, but in the way you are treating her. I completely understand and know you are trying to do what is best for her and it's VERY obvious you love her and want what is best for her. But it really sounds like she doesn't have enough responsibility. It also sounds like you are unintentionly enabling her.

Give her more responsibility such as cleaning her own room and doing her own laundry. She needs to have a job and needs to be financially responsible for stuff. If you want to help, great, but no more than half for school. If she is living with you, you definitely have the right to allow things and not allow things, but I wonder if maybe it's time for her to leave the nest and grow up. She sounds like she is still a teen.

I hope I haven't hurt your feelings! I just really think you won't see improvement until she is given responsibility. Don't be afraid to sit down together and come up with rules and expectations, write it down and both sign it. My mom loved contracts once we were older:-). We participated in deciding what was written in it, what was expected of both of us, and it taught me to understand contracts more, which is something we experience often as adults.

Good luck.

She is an adult now. What she does is not your problem anymore, and at her age there is not much you can do about it, except let her learn the hard way. You need to let her experience the consequences of her own actions. What do you care if she buys new clothes? Surely you are not still giving her money for clothing? If she is not in school, she should be working and paying her own expenses.

I can understand if you don't want to kick her out of the house, although you might consider that as an option. If you do pay some of her expenses - for instance, tuition - pay it directly to the school or whatever; do not give her money. Then let her spend her own money however she wants to. Don't ask her what she buys or tell her how to spend her money. If she stole money and doesn't pay it back, maybe the school will report it to the police and she will be arrested. That might be the best thing for her. Stay out of it. She's an adult. It's not your problem.

I know you've already received a lot of helpful responses to your question. I noticed that you had also inquired if there is an herb that could help.

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P., I'm raising my granddaughter who just started lying...for no reason. I don't understand why. Her mother used to do the same thing. She lies about stupid things. I have talked to her and tried to explain that she will lose friends because they won't know when to believe her. I think a lot of it for attention. She makes up things to her friends. I have decided to give her more attention as long as she stops the lying. We will see...

C.

Try www.sosinc.org. It works!! It's not therapy, or religious or a cult thing...they do certain processes throughout the weekend and you're done with ALL of your "junk". Basic 1 is April 17-19. It's offered each month. May is the 4th weekend. You attend all day Fri, Sat and most of Sun. If you sign up a week early it's only $79. You do stay at the hotel, $91. It's the ONLY thing that worked for us and we've done THREE counselors, a pastor, and two church seminars!! Good luck!! They will work with you on a payment plan. It's based off Dr. Phil's Pathways program. Oh, it's just as you enter Irving, at the Radisson (near Embassy Suites). Good luck. She would attend alone. It's wonderful for the entire family but each person goes on their own.

First of all, I am really sorry that you have to deal with this kind of behavior and I'm really not sure what I would do in your case. However...I was married with a baby girl when I was 21 and I had another baby on the way. Please stop trying to control your daughter and her mistakes and let her go. She will never grow up and will never learn from her mistakes if you are always there to clean up after them. She is an adult. Where is she getting the money to purchase these clothes or the credit? If she works then there is nothing you can do. If you are paying her to take care of the house and the rest of your children then stop. Make her get a different job and let her take care of all of her own responsibilities. You can only mother her for so long. Honestly...it's time to let go! Regardless of whether she asked for help or not...maybe you should not. Especially if she won't follow your rules that you are allowed to attach to any help you give her.

It sounds like there may be an underlying problem she is trying to cover up. I would work on the compulsion that she has to do these things. She is lying because she knows she is wrong and others will be upset. I don't know about herbs, but I would consider a counselor or psychiatrist to help get to the bottom of the problem, because you are right, she will have many problems in the future if she can't get this under control. Best of luck to you.

Very first question... She is 21 years old, WHY are you still treating her like she is 12?

This is a grown woman...you CAN"T tell her what she can and can't do anymore. Obviously she cannot show you respect by following a few "house rules" so it is time for her to "Fly Be Free".

Sorry Mom, but it is time for some "tough love". Be secure in knowing that you have done your job and taught her what she needs to know to survive in the world and let her fly the coop. She is 21 years old and it is time she started acting like it. However, she cannot grow up as long as YOU keep treating her like she is 12. Our children would never learn to walk if we didn't let them fall a few times to learn balance.

*Hugs*

D.
SAHM of two(18 and 5). Home Baker and Candy Maker. Married to the same wonderful man for almost 12 years.

Was she taught the "Ten Commandments" as a child?

I think you need to LET her suffer her own consequences. Be careful not to be an enabler. Don't give her any money. If she's living under your roof, tell her to get a job and that she's on her own financially. Even charging her rent is good for her in the long run- it really teaches financial responsibility. LET her get in trouble with creditors if that's what she chooses to do. LET her stress about paying her own bills. Don't bail her out!! Tough love M.! Giving cash to an alcoholic would be stupid, we all know that, so don't make the same mistake here. It's hard to be strong when you feel like being soft and mushy, but standing your ground screams "I love you" a lot more than the alternative. =)

Ok. I think I see the problem is here. You want her to be an adult yet treat her like a child.

Does she have a job and her own money or does she have an allowance?

If its her job and her money you don't have any right to tell her what to do with it, even is she is home. A girl needs to look nice to attract a husband and that is an investment at that age.

If it's an allowance and she is deserving, pay her like an employer and then it's still her money. It's okay to subtract a pro rated amount weekly from her check(agree on this together), same amt every week and don't be late. No one likes their paychecks to arrive late.

or Try setting up a payment plan for college repayment and every 1st of the month she pays her bill. That is being treated like an adult.

She's not changing because you're not changing. She has to want to change. Try taking the reason for the lying away and give her the opportunity to heal then relearn a better honest practice. Stop hounding, that will only upset you both.

Maybe what's wrong is that she is trying to be like everyone else and its getting her into trouble. She is fearful and probably ashamed for some reason and it comes out in confrontations as lies.

I don't know the whole reasons for all but sometimes the phrase "keep it simple" does a world of wonders.

One last tidbit if you don't mind: Always tell her you love her no matter how bad she is or how terrible a thing she does. Softly let her know how your feelings are hurt that she has lied to you. She may not change now but maybe later she will understand.

God bless you both, C

It's funny you asked for help, and when some really good responses come in, you flashed back with defense and anger. Don't take this personally . These moms are only giving you what you asked for, and they have some good advice.

Psychologist may be in order given family history. I would maybe even suggest family counseling as well before you venture into anything too drastic b/c there may be some bigger issues going on that need to be solved. I had a cousin that went through this recently. Family tried everything when he was 18+ - cutting him off, kicking him out of the house - "tough love"! Unfortunately, it was not "tough love" that was needed in his case. Even after all of this "tough love" they ended up struggling with his behavior into his late 20's and still are to some degree. They are all going through family counseling now and finally things are starting to get better. They wish they would have done counseling a lot earlier b/c he was dealing with some bigger issues that "tough love" would not solve. Because of the family history part that is what makes me think you may want to enlist some professionals. Good luck with everything!!

My suggestion, it is time for her to leave your house. You need to give her 60 days notice, in writing. Tell her she has 60 days to find somewhere else to live, because she is an adult and it is time for her to be responsible for herself. The only way you should ever let your 21 year old adult child live with you is if they are going to school or have some kind of developmental or physical disability that requires you to help care for them. She got kicked out of college, so she is not in school. It is time for her to be an adult and be on her own. Tell her she has 30 days to find a job and a place to live, tell her you are doing it because you love her.

I understand that is sudden, but she can do it. She should be able to find a job within a week or two. Over the next few weeks she can find a roomate if neccesary. She can find a cheap place to live. You can help her find a place and even direct her to some now hiring signs that you see around town. I think it is fair for you to give her a little assistance to start out. I think it is fair for you to possibly pay the deposit for the apartment and cosign or something if necessary, since it is such sudden notice. I think I would decide on a small amount of money to offer her to help in her transition. I am all about helping, just not enabling. I think you could agree to give her maybe $1000 for those things, call it a going away gift! She can use it for deposit, an other necessary moving expenses. Offer to give her some things in your house that you no longer need to help her start her new place. You know what I mean, an extra piece of furniture that you don't need, extra kitchen appliances. Help her move out, but do not let her continue to live with you. She will never learn how to be honest and responsible if you are looking over her shoulder, paying for her every need and taking care of laundry and cleaning. It is time for her to grow up. Suck it up and send her away. She is an adult.

I want you to know that when I was 21 I was married, my husband (22) and I owned our own home, drove brand new cars, he worked full time, I had a Bachelor's degree two dogs and a baby. Your daughter is way behind! She needs to grow up and you need to make her!

Hi P.,

Has your daughter had issues with self esteem? I am just wondering because often times lying is a self esteem issue (and so is buying new clothes and not being able to help yourself).

It sounds as if your daughter needs something to make her feel happy. Sometimes the love of a good family is all that holds you together when the rest of your world is falling apart....and her world may be falling around her.

My advice would be to not make threats you are not willing to follow through on. For instance, if you tell her, "Do this again and you will be kicked out of the house," you have to kick her out if she does it again. It might be better to tell her she will have to pay you a certain amount of money every time you notice she has bought something new, ie. $10 for each new clothes item. If a five dollar shirt is going to end up costing her $15, she might not think the deal is so good after all.

Also, I would suggest getting her more counseling with a Christian counselor. She may be struggling with your mom's death and may feel closer to your mom when she acts just like her.

Or, she may just feel like she has let EVERYONE down and thinks buying new clothes will make her feel better about "how awful she is".....because I'm sure she feels like she is awful if she got kicked out of school for stealing and lying...which brings me back to the self esteem theory.

Anyways, counseling or a Christian woman who could befriend her and give her good advice would be a great idea. She definitely needs someone to turn to besides you....she obviously doesn't want you to be disappointed in her or she wouldn't be lying to you!

P., From your update is sounds like this runs in the family, maybe skipping generations, it sounds clinical, and you need to have her evaluated by a psychologist. Many psychological disorders do not show up until early to mid-twenties. To me that sounds like the issue. But, I am not licensed and I have not met your daughter in person. Next, never, never, never give up on your daughter. Yes, she is an adult and you don't have to enable her lying and compulsive spending but you are still her mom and the one person who knows her better than anyone and you know this is NOT normal behavior for her, something has changed. I am surprised that the counselors have not referred you to a psychologist. I would do some research and make an appointment today. She is still a good person, a good woman and your daughter, she is just needing help; compulsive lying and stealing is not "normal" and if diagnosed has treatment options. I will be praying for you both and your family.

P. I'm so sorry for you, I know this must get old. I'm no doctor, but I think you should have her evaluated by a psychologist, someone who knows the brain and different disorders. I don't think it is normal for a 21 year old to still be acting this way. She will not only hurt the people around her, but will hurt herself in the long run. It is going to be hard for her to keep a job or a relationship. Good luck and I wish you the best.

Is she using her own money?
If not-stop giving her money or access to money. Pay for the things you wish to pay for yourslef. Ex : put gas in her car for her, etc
If yes- Go Cosby show on her!
There was this episode where Theo thought he was old enough to be on his own so they took everything out of his room and made him buy it back, paying for his food from the kitchen and electricity and everything.
You may not want to be this drastic but i used a similar technique on my teen and it worked great! Find out how much the clothes costs that she buys or guess, and "charge"her for them by turning off the electricity to her room for the day or impounding her car (taking away the keys) for the week, forcing her to accept real life consequences that she would have if she were on her own. If she spent money on clothes instead of electricity her electricity WOULD be turned off, she wouldnt have money for gas or her car WOULD be repossessed and she WOULD have to find a ride to work or school on her own. If you truly want to help her , you have to watch her suffer a little bit. It WILL happen, now or later. You choose. Help her now or let her find out on her own later. I sympathize, I HATE punishing my children. Its so inconvenient and hurtful, but I am never sorry when I do it right. I am always sorry when I am too weak and it causes them more pain later. There are many adult children still living at home "mooching" off their parents way into their 30's because they never learned to survive on their own. I don't want that, do you?

You are enabling her behavior. She is an adult, let her grow up and become an adult and have to deal with the results of her behavior.

Hello P.,
This is T. and I am a mother of three sons. I haven't yet gotten to the teenage years yet...in fact, my sons are ages 2yrs, 3yrs, and 4yrs. I however do have a lot of experience in raising teenagers. This sounds strange since I am only 27yrs old, but I'm an old soul they say. My teenage sister is now 17yrs old and will be turning 18yrs old in only two short months. I've assisted my mother with her as well as my aunts with a host of cousins. All of which were girls. They started out either being promiscuous or lying and stealing. The first thing you must do is Pray and give your total Faith to the Lord. Ask him for guidance as well as patience to get through this. You must sit her down and talk to her and express openly your feelings about how she makes you and your family feel when she lies. Then you must let her know that if she continues, you won't have any choice, but to think of everything she says as a lie and not believe her. No one wants to feel like their mother doesn't trust them or respect them. She will have to outgrow this phase. All you can do is Pray and just talk to her about it. It may get worse before it gets better, but she's an adult and you really should't look at it like you've failed. You raised her to the best of your ability and now it's her turn to grow up. Don't bail her out. It's may take a hard fall for her to realize what she's doing isn't right. You have to stay strong and focus on just being there to talk to her when she needs you the most...when her time finally runs out. Some people just cant be helped until they have hit rock bottom. We as mothers don't wish any harm to our children, but we have to treat them as they act once they're old enough to know right from wrong. Don't keep preaching to her, but let her know how you feel and it's up to her to keep lying to you or stop. She'll get the pic. I will pray for you Miss P. B.

P., your daughter needs counseling to help her get to the bottom of this self-destructive behavior. Even though she has seen other counselors before she obviously needs to continue therapy. Sometimes it takes the right match between therapist and client to be successful. Also, let's face it, some are more experienced and simply better than others. Please give Mark Felber a call and see if he can't help you. His phone number is ###-###-#### or you can check out his website at www.marriagecpr.com. He is EXCELLENT and has worked wonders on some very tough cases. I wish you and your daughter the very best.

I used to lie to my mom cause I felt like she never approved of anything anyway so I would shut her up by agreeing with her or lying. I never felt like I measured up. I don't know if this is what it is, but my mom would say the same about me that you have said about your daughter except the steeling part. I never liked that.