The Art of Courtship

I think a lot of people still have great solid marriages where people talk and relate and respect each other. But those of us with those great marriages don't come on a public forum to ask other people for advice about them! Since this is an advice site, most people come here when something is wrong, not right. Many of us come with questions about basic child-rearing, others come with real life problems and relationship troubles. People are looking for advice and support, but some of these situations may not be as serious (make-or-break relationship) as they appear on the site. At least I tell myself that, so that I can continue to be optimistic! ^_^

Of course they do. But this is a site for people who are looking for answers to problems or need advice about handling tricky situations. It's not a site for people to gush about what is wonderful in their lives. I use this site to ask questions about things I need advice about--not about the things that are wondeful in my life--those are areas I don't need help or support with. I guess I am surprised that you are so bothered by what you see here. Normal, healthy relationships have problems and stress. That's life. Just because we're asking for advice, venting or needing support in tough times doesn't mean we're not also talking to our significant others about things and it doesn't mean we didn't talk about them when we were dating. Things change, people change and unexpected things come up along the way. We had no idea we would have a daughter with ADHD and all the parenting, child-rearing challenges that would arise. We both knew we wanted kids but never pinned down a number other than more than one...should we have written a contract before we got married?
EDIT:
I think these issues probably existed even back in the days of "courtship" BUT back in those days, the men pretty much controlled finances and many other big decisions and the women were supposed to keep their mouths shut and do the dishes.

Hi K.,

I specifically recommend a courtship in relationships because the end result is simply healthier and longer lasting. I speak of it here often but don't usually use the word courtship because I don't think many young women these days know exactly what that entails. It can be somewhat complex and we live in an "easier" society. It also requires parental involvement which many of these young women don't seem to have readily available.

I have two daughters, the oldest 18, and she has courted one young man. When that ended, no one was hurt. They simply found that there were too many differences in the way they wanted to live.....during the exciting beginning, they said it was important but all the emotions got in the way. Both my daughters have young men pursuing but they all know that Dad is the only way to get to them....It takes a special guy to make an appointment with Dad and expose your inner soul, lol.....sometimes an ongoing one!

Thanks K. for asking this. It is a very true point!

M.

Today it's all about me. We are so concerned about me we figure everyone else should be concerned about me too. Selfishness is the chief cause of divorce and the media has put selfishness on a pedestal. Some women on this site have raised selfishness and self-centeredness to an art form and their quest for it to a crusade.

On a question some one asked on what the ladies were going to do for their husbands for Father's Day, one woman said her husband didn't do anything for her on Mothers' Day so she was going to do the same for him on Fathers' Day. What was worse, she got 5 flowers. That's disgusting.

When I was in school, we (12-13 year old boys) had a class (in P.E.) on how to treat our date. The girls had their own class. No one mentioned boys dating boys. We were concerned about morals and honesty and integrity. The kind of girls boys wanted to date and bring home to introduce to mom and dad wouldn't even think of having sex before marriage. Now women will trade themselves for a roof over her head, and she often pays for part of that roof! No commitment and they have kids together.

I was thinking of asking a question asking women to tell us what they do to encourage their husbands to be romantic. Or what they did to teach their husbands to be romantic. Maybe then the selfish, its all about me, marriages would benefit. Of course there are some husbands that are the romantic side of their relationship and I would hope they would tell what they do to put romance in their marriages and maybe how they taught their wives to be romantic.

I try to thank my wife for something she has done each week. I try and give my wife flowers (no candy because she's on a diet) at least once per month and holidays where gifts and flowers are expected don't count, like Valentines day and Mother's day. I try and write her a love poem once per month or give her a thank you card, again, holidays where that is expected don't count. I have forgotten upon occasion, so I have a space in a filing cabinet where I put cards for all the holidays and events so if I happen to forget, I can go to my file and pull out a card for the appropriate event. I try to plan on a date night once per week when we can economically. I'm retired and I found out by accident that flowers are appreciated when I give them to her at home, but they are much more appreciated when I bring them to her work and put them on her desk. Her co-workers really told her how lucky she was when they read some of my poems (they were supposed to be private) to her and saw the flowers I gave her. She learned how lucky she was as I am the only husband in her work group that does that. (Or at least how lucky they told her she was.) I always get out of the car first and go around and open the door for her and offer her my hand for assistance, or open the door for her to get in and again I offer her my hand in assistance. I open doors for her going in and out of buildings and offer her the best seat at restaurants, etc. My wife and I took the kids out to dinner and the waiter kept making a fuss over the kids and ignoring my wife and I. The second or third time he did this, I got up and went over to him and told him his tip was based on how well he treated my wife and watched over her. After that he got his priorities in order. My wife and I take turns planning our vacations. I have read, "The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands," "Total Woman", "Fireproof" (movie), "The Love Dare", "1001 Ways to be Romantic" and numerous artices addressing how to be nice to your spouce.

Thank you for asking. Good luck to you and yours.

The question is deceiving. The Art of Courtship is how to capture the heart of another, but, to my knowledge, there is no defined art on how to hold onto their heart. In my experience, good relationships (whether it be with your husband, family members, or girlfriends) are more about the individual than the unit. I don't care how many date nights you have, if you are unable to communicate your wants and needs to the other person then the relationship will always be in trouble. Likewise, you need to listen to the other person's wants and desires. And if they don't tell you what they are, you need to simply ask. I think that over time, we become so comfortable in our relationship that we stop effectively communicating with words. In particular, women use intuition and we expect our partner to do the same. I think it is all somehow tied to becoming a mother - you just know what the other person wants or needs. When our partner can't read our minds, we are left feeling alone and frustrated. I am less heartbroken by people discussing conflict in their marriage than I am by couples who argue around what is really bothering them. So, to the young women in my life, I tell them to be true to themselves, to identify their wants and needs, and to communicate them effectively - whether it is at school, work, or in a relationship. They control their own destinies.
C.

Courtship is alive we teach by example. I have been dating someone for 2 yrs on and off now we are engaged. We date still go out to dinner every Sunday no matter what plus other days if possible we do lunch and walks ect. On the other had I have friends and neighboor who date 1 or time and the guys sleeeps over or moves in. Me and my finance dont sleep at each others house or go away together try and show kids the right way.
We all make mistakes but pick yourself up and start again. morales are gone in todays society we cab try hard to keep them in our family.

My husband and I "courted". We talked about EVERYTHING before we were married. But having children and the business being slow, changes things. We're not stagnant, we're constantly changing. That's part of the fun and bane of marriage. And we help our daughters by teaching them what it means to be a real woman, and we help them by teaching our sons to be real men. We also help our sons when we teach them to be real men and teach our daughters to be real women.

I met my husband when I was 18 - three weeks before I left for college and when he was already away at school as a junior. We live in the same town but went to different high schools. I always wondered how I could marry someone after only knowing them for a few years, and I always though - I probably won't get married. Needless to say, I am 36 years old now. Married to my husband for almost 7 years. We loved eachother and hated each other. We were on and off again for years! We basically grew up together. Grew apart. Were enemies. Were friends. Had mutual friends all along. Shared our lives with eachother as friends, even though we both were in on other "serious" relationships. We lived on opposite ends of the country for years. We visited eachother. We even didn't see eachother at times when one of us was on the same side of the country as the other. Through it all we talked on the phone. Wrote letters. Analyzed life. Looked back, looked ahead. Even at times SWORE WE'D NEVER BE A PART OF EACH OTHERS LIVES AGAIN. WE laughed, cried, fought (VERY HARD AT TIMES), shared dreams, goals and hopes and found that we had many of the same. We ran to each other first during good times and bad and as fate would have it life put us in each others paths when either of us needed it most, from simple things like being broken down on the side of the road and the other was the first car to pass by unknowingly, to being the first call when my father died and he telling me that he happened to be getting on a plain the next day to come home, he had no idea! We traveled the country by car (which if you ever have done you know is a true test of ANY relationship) With all that and more it still came as a complete shock to me that some of the times I HATED my husbnad the most and thought there was no way we could survive came when 1) We bought our first house and 2) We had our first child. SHOCKING and SAD but we worked through it and at the lowest of times I'd say to myself - NO WONDER so many people get divorced. After all we've been through if we are having problems, I can't imagine dealing with someone whom I hardly know. We made a pact or at least I did with myself that we were "married" and with that brought committment unlike any we had before and "breaking up" was just not an option anymore. We dug deep down inside to hold onto that standard and I know we had some very questioning times. He told me to go at times. I told him to go at times. But when it came down to it we always said NO - I'm not going anywhere! We will deal with this and overcome this (whatever this was at the time) The other standard was WE are married and NO ONE gets in between that, no matter what our problems, b/c that could be to hard to overcome. Not that we ever considered it but we knew the boundries. With that said...I'm not sure if the courting aspect of relationships is the problem, or if its the lack of ability to FIGHT for that relationship once you commit. All I know is being married is hard. Being married and being a homeowner together is very hard. Being married and having a child together is the hardest thing ever! While thankful and lucky to have a partner to share all the responsibilities, giving yourself and your thoughts up and having to step aside at times when it comes to child is hard too because its hard for everyone to agree all the time!

hmmm...I think I'll call my husband right now and tell him I love him! : )

By the way - as an adult I've come to learn that my own mother and father, together till death parted them started out as teenagers, had on and off again times and had serious bumps in the road when married, I am sure more than I know and more than I care to know. Same thing with my husbands parents. I hope we can instill upon our children the morals and standards that our parents instilled upon us...however, you never do know what life is going to give you or what someone is going to do to you all you can do is be the best YOU can be!

My husband isn't always the best husband and I am not the best wife, but we try...we try to be thoughtful and considerate and supportive of eachother. He cleans. I cook and clean. We share responsibilities. He surprises me with flowers at work and home or other things. I surprise him in ways too. We take time for eachother away from the stresses of life and when we do, inevitably we always say "we really do love each other" and we realize how much the daily grind can get in the way of that - so we try to take away the daily grind. We text and email through out the day - modern day "love letters" : ) We do the best we can.

Unfortunately in this day and age, I think way too many people get into a relationship too fast and that has disastrous results (not always). You think you are in love, get pregnant without really knowing the person, etc. I also think a lot of times the 'courting' goes away when sex comes into the relationship. In essence, the man feels he has 'won' over the woman so he shouldn't have to try as hard.

I think the art of courtship is such a fun part of a relationship but I will also say that if my hubby had proposed to be earlier than our fourth year being together, I still would have said yes!

I think with my daughter, I will expect a courtship of her when she dates. Not just that I will let her go out where ever with whom ever. I'm big on people (girls and guys) meeting us because I dont' want my children running around with people I do not know. With her future boyfriends, they will come over to the house to meet us before taking her out. My husband may even be cleaning his guns (HAH! Kidding).

That being said, I think people can do the courtship thing and then once married, realize they should not have gotten married, life situations may cause them to change their mind about more kids, etc. But I think as long as you have a solid friendship in your marriage, you can get through most things. You may not agree on how to raise children, so agree to disagree and come to a compromise. The number of kids issue is challenging so that is a case by case basis. And I think money is probably the #1 problem/cause of fights in a marriage - sad, but I think so.

Hi K.,
I'm sorry you feel the way you feel about this site. Unfortunately "none" of us came with a Ph. D in the art of courtship, relationships, marriage, money, negotiation, raising children, etc....
That's why these sites exist. To help one another. At least I feel much better asking other moms, who don't know me, their opinion about something I don't know that to come to my family who might judge me right away, or my neighbors who will "share" the information around.
In the past women were trained and conditioned to just please the husband and the children needs. There was not "me" only the others.
It would be great if "all" men were like "8kidsdad" though. All the things you think are not there anymore, they are still there. Just that now, most of us take part in the decision making.
Life has changed and with that we have learned that we also have a voice, feelings and the freedom to decided what's good or works for us. And also we learn from our mistakes. That's all.

Hi K.! I absolutely agree with McK4!

I do want to know.....are you talking about courtship in a pre-marital relationship or courtship IN marriage?

Your first poster hit it on the head when she said that these problems have ALWAYS existed, but before it was expected that the wife just be told what to do, what to expect and how to do everything possible to keep the marriage happy by not rocking the proverbial boat.

I am a little disturbed by the poster before me talking about women on this site raising selfishness to an art form. That's a pretty strong judgement for not knowing someone's whole story.

I actually see women helping other women on here all the time. Recommendations for counseling, suggesting just talking it out with a spouse, suggesting compromise, etc.

Our daughter's now fiancee just asked my husband if her could court our daughter. They are getting acquainted and as our daughter decided that giving her heart to all meant there was not enough left for her husband it is a hands off relationship til the wedding. What a blessing that her young man told my husband that at that time. There are still issues to be resolved but it won't be complicated by a physical relationship. Yes it does happen today, but you have to teach it from the time they are young.
Our children never had girl/boyfriends but they had lots of friends that were girls/boys and if anyone mentioned girls/boyfriend I would correct the adult. There was never a time that I thought 6th graders and younger should go to dances. Mine never went to them in high school because they knew the kids that would be there were not kids they would choose to be with. Parties are not dances, dances promote physical contact unnecessary for little ones.
God bless you for opening the discussion.
Thoughts to ponder
SAHM married 40 years --- adult children 38, 34, and twins 20.

If there is any advice I can give it's: regard your body as a temple/don't just "give" it away, find your best friend/that will hold you guys over on the days things are REALLY tough or you don't like each other as much as the day before LOL, don't be afraid to argue but argue fair. I know people who are getting divorced now because they never argued...now they are going through tough times and he wants to bail because it isn't perfect anymore. My husband and I have been together for 15 years and we have had our ups and downs but we are best friends and we know that we can overcome the next hurdle just like we have the ones before it. Also, don't ever put your relationship on the back burner...yes it's harder with kids and jobs and every day responsibility but personally I am thankful my husband and I are still affectionate after all these years and closer than ever.

"My question is how are we as women teaching or encouraging younger women to not fall into the traps we may have fallen in ourselves? How are we helping them to have better more meaningful relationships with men?"

Funny how few people answered the question. As a mother of a daughter I intend top teach my daughter biblical truths about her body, soul and spirit. I intend to teach her how that applies to male/female relationships. I plan to stay married to my husband. I believe in my vows wholeheartedly. For better or worse. There were no maybes. I want her to understand the weight of a decision to marry. I think the best thing we can do is provide examples that are healthy and real. I will support courtship. Thank you for your thought provoking question.

I'm almost 40 and I don't have time for courtships...lol. I just want to know if they don't have a criminal background, no drug use, religious status, good relationship with their parents, and if they are employed before I waste my time with a long courtship.

Nanc