Off Shoot on Naughty Boy

But the child in that story was not reported by the school. It was another three year old telling the story. You know, three year olds who think five minutes is forever?

The responses would be quite different if the story was, I was called by the school because my son keeps leaving the bathroom faucet running. I can't believe they called me, after all boys will be boys. Should I pull him from the school because they don't respect my precious little snowflake?

Big difference between a mischievous 4 year old boy and a 4th grade juvenile delinquent. Given some of the truly alarming things I read in school files, I still think the "Naughty Boy" is on track to be a law-abiding citizen.

Well, this is why kids have parents growing up, right? If they didn't need us, they would have hatched out of eggs and walked away from us.

Any of those actions can be corrected. "Oh, looks like you need to go back and turn off the water." (inconvenience)

Looking under stalls? For 3-4 year olds,that's a time out. We teach privacy. My son doesn't like to use the bathroom at school b/c of that sort of thing. It IS a problematic behavior. So, you address it.

I think a child's self-esteem is BOOSTED when we teach them to be socially appropriate and guide them to know how to behave, period. Better for my son to receive guidance and censure from me than to have an upset stranger or someone else's parents become frustrated with him, right? I mean, my job is to teach him how to respect others, respect the spaces he is in, and what sort of behaviors are appropriate for different settings, whether we are at the park or at the store or visiting the grandparents. So, while it is NORMAL for kids to do these things, it is equally normal and acceptable to teach them *not* to.

This is why 3 year olds have parents, right. They need to learn. A three year old might leave the water on because 1- they forgot (easy, Danny, look you left the water running, please go turn it off) or 2 - because they like water running, playing in water, splashing, etc (also easy - Danny please go turn the water in the bathroom off. Then we can play with the water table - or do some other activity involving water that is acceptable to us).

Danny peeks under the stalls. Danny, we don't peek under the stalls. We play hide and seek (when everyone is dressed, in the living room, whatever your acceptable parameters for peeking are).

My son's preschool did not 'report' when a child did things like this and expect parents to 'administer consequences'. They showed the child the correct way to do something. It won't damage Danny's self esteem to play with the water table instead of the bathroom water faucet. But I don't see that three year old learning about the world (because every thing the OP listed as Danny's behaviors are clearly a three year old exploring his world) is going to be the end of civilization as we know it. I simply see no reason that a 'swift and sure' punitive response is necessary.

The whole 'boys will be boys' thing has never held any water in our house.
It's not cute/playful/mischievous antics or any other positive upbeat euphemism you care to come up with.
Vandalism and/or acting like a fool gets disciplined.
It's not like our son at 3 yrs old never took a sharpie marker and drew on the wall but after once - we told him it was wrong and not to do it again or there would be consequences.
We're lucky he's always been good with following rules.

The boy in that question could easily be one of mine, although my son's antics are more about being disruptive in a group than doing something that could cause a mess.

Age is important...we're talking about 3 & 4 year olds here, not kids in elementary school. If my son had done things like that at that age, what would have worked for him would have been to appeal to his ability to make good choices because he was all about "you can't actually MAKE me do anything" (which as a parent is hard to accept because really, it's true). So I would have said something like "you chose to leave the water running, which you know is something that we don't do. It's wrong to waste water, and you could have gotten the floor wet and made someone slip and fall. If you don't choose better next time, then you won't be able to use the bathroom without a teacher. I know you can make the big-boy choice and don't have to be taken to the bathroom like a baby, right?" In real life that conversation would have had more give and take, more of giving him the chance to predict the outcome ("what happens when you leave the water running? What could happen if the sink over flowed? Do you think that it's OK for someone to get hurt?"), etc.

I would start with a one-issue-at-a-time approach and if it turned into a pattern, would work with the teacher on a positive discipline daily point system where days of few or no incidents would earn points toward a reward and days of poor behavior would result in that reward being delayed.

By the way...I completely disagree that there is anything "wrong with the children of today's world" other than that they are being diagnosed at alarming rates with auto-immune and mental health issues such as allergies, asthma, AD/HD, autism-spectrum disorders, learning disabilities, mood disorders, etc. I believe that the health issues of our children's generation are very real and are a sign that there is something very, very wrong with our environment, food, healthcare, or all three. But outside of those issues, which are completely out of their control? The kids are alright, really.

She was talking about three year olds, little ones who are impulsive (some more than others) and still learning, not school age kids who are old enough to know better.
This has nothing to do with "society" or "self esteem" it's about what to expect of a certain age group.
I'm sorry the children you've been exposed to haven't been given limits or rules, I don't find that to be the case at all with my own kids and their friends. They're a lot more mature and well behaved than many kids I knew growing up, that's for sure.

I have been the parent getting bad reports from preschool, only my child was doing far worse than just acting like a 3-year-old boy due what we later learned were some brain disorders.

How did I handle it? Swift action, immediate talk after school about the actions. Clear talk about right and wrong, and the reasoning behind it all (but in simple terms, geared for that very young age). "It may seem fun to let the water run, but there isn't enough water where we live right now, so it's really important to turn it off when you're done, just like you do at home."

The issues mentioned are minor ones and very common in that age group. Making noise in class? Typical. Still warrants a talk about rules, but making sure not to overreact like the child has hurt someone (which requires more consequences).

Frankly, I don't care about self-esteem. I am big on following rules and building up our kids without inflating egos. However, after parenting two kids now (including the one with medical issues), I know what's typical and what's extreme. I also trust the teachers to handle the minor issues and set the example for school behavior. My job is to reinforce proper school behavior at home, while understanding the degree of action required.

I try hard not to judge other children, esp. at such a very young age (these are kids who just learned to use the potty). Bigger issues are ahead. I'm dealing with a kid who stole our son's video game, got suspended for racist comments at school and has a dad with a swastika tattoo on his back. THAT is a kid to worry about being around my son. A noisy preschool boy? Nope.

It's just funny how it's ALWAYS the "other" kid/s, huh?

That's just the thing. From the post, (and from what she gathered from her son) we don't really know whether "Danny" is doing all those things on purpose/willfully to cause mischief, or if he is just a forgetful child who forgot to turn off the water, or was curious about who was next door and forgot his manners. We don't know!

So, we don't ignore it. We address it with our child. We don't go further than addressing it with OUR child, though.

And without having knowledge of whether "Danny" is an innocent who forgot, or a child looking for trouble at an early age, we don't assume anything about his motives. (Good or bad). Our kids will figure out by what they experience/witness whether it is innocent forgetfulness and innocent curiosity or if it is not. The only "mistake" (if you want to call it that) that I think the original poster made was ALWAYS presuming that it was innocent. It might be that her son picked up some cues that it wasn't so innocent and that is why he was telling her. We don't know.
So we reinforce the rules/expectations for our child, and refrain from ascribing motivations to "Danny".

funny you should ask M.. Here's what I said to her:
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OMG I was so excited for this post.I thought it was for grown up ladies liking "bad boys"...sooo disappointed its about 3 year olds!!! LMAO!

You're handling it fine. Keep doing what you're doing. Don't stop being friends with him. Also don't confuse mischief with actually a bad kid. I have 3 - one in preschool, 1 in 1st and 1 in 2nd. I have met some mischievous kids (my son's little bestie is an adorable 3 year old who is a red-headed little devil (but in a good way). He is not at all a "bad" boy but definitely not a super goody goody either. Love him! However, I have met actually nasty, sneaky, not nice at all kids. These are different and believe it or not you will see signs at a young age! Not sure if your "danny" is one or not. Use judgement - see if the mischief is mean spirited or if he "playfully" hurts other kids etc. Hope this is helpful. Good luck. Next time you say bad boy I want a good read! LOL!
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PS If it was my child reported to me by the school, I would absolutely reprimand. Just because I would strictly enforce the rules however does not mean I would think my son was "bad" in these instances though...

So, we've got a generation of parents who have come to believe that every child must have their self-esteem supported. There's nothing wrong with helping to build genuine self-esteem, but some of the methods are pretty screwed up. Tell a child "Good job" even if it wasn't? Give participation trophies to every child who shows up? Fail to correct a misbehaving child?

Not sure where those ideas started, but they are deeply rooted in society, and we're only beginning to see the interesting ways they're affecting kids and young adults now. So, the most observant among us have noticed, and are changing our individual practices, and many schools are now following suit. BUT, it always takes at least a couple of decades for important new changes to become established.

Meanwhile, I think it's fine to observe and speak up when things are going in the wrong direction. That's one of the ways society learns. I also notice that there's little accomplished by blaming parents who are still stuck in permissive (or overly strict) parenting – all the grumbling in the world won't help them change.

Spoiled children often become spoiling parents. If a mom learned permissiveness, from infancy, as "how to parent," why would she listen to me spout otherwise? It's generally consequences that makes us notice what's wrong, find a solution, and perhaps change things. So, if that careless little boy becomes deliberately destructive, that mom will start paying attention. Eventually, she may even change her parenting style. But probably not before things become too uncomfortable, and for many adults, not even then, but that's a whole topic in itself.

So, how would I handle a 3yo who does things that I don't want? I take him by the hand, take him to the scene of the behavior, explain what I need done differently, and help the child accomplish that. Repeat as needed. Most kids can and will learn new habits with only a few repeats and no tears – they're geared for that in the early years.

If the child, over time, is clearly "trying" to be naughty (and most kids will do this at least once in awhile as they find out where their parent's boundaries are), I would use the wonderful techniques offered by so many parenting books. (My personal favorite is How to Talk So Kids Will Listen, and Listen So Kids Will Talk, by Faber and Mazlish. This book can really help kids understand and master their own problems.)

I don't think everyone meant to just let it Be. I think we all know that this is normal boy stuff. Sure it needs to be addressed and if it was my kid I would address it. What I think we all meant was that he is not a "bad" boy just a real spunky kid. I think everyone on here would address it if it was their kid.

well, little danny may well need to be reprimanded by the school and his parents. i don't remember reading any responses that suggested that little danny should be allowed to run wild. but it was pointed out that all the info was coming from another pre-schooler.
every generation thinks the current generation is lax and poorly-parented and that society will consequently go to hell in a handbasket.
at the moment the pendulum is all the way into coddly-schmoddly. at some point it will swing back to iron-fisted. and sadly, when it's in the sensible middle stages, no one recognizes and enjoys it!
:) khairete
S.

My answer to the original question:

I would have told my kids "If I ever found out that you were doing what Danny did then you would be in big trouble!" and I would come up with some consequences to back up my statement. I would also suggest to my kids to remind Danny not to do these things if they see him doing them.

I don't think Danny's behavior rose to the level of unacceptable or intolerable. Again, this is a 3 year old being 3. Yes, his parents should talk to him, but to me this is not earth-shattering behavior. I wouldn't let it slide because I don't want to hurt Danny's self-esteem. I agree with you that that's what's wrong with today's children - no one wants to correct them for fear of hurting their self-esteem or crushing their spirit. B.S.!!!! But I also believe that you have to pick your battles and I didn't see anything in Danny's behavior to warrant a battle. Discussion yes; give him time to mature and learn, but let it slide without comment, no.

I'd correct my own kids immediately. Certain behaviors would not be acceptable to me. But I would never correct another person's child if the other parent was right there. If I was in the bathroom with the two little boys and no other parent and one didn't turn off the water, I would simply tell that child to turn off the water. My OWN child would be told to turn off the water AND get a lecture about it.

Sure, boys will be boys and kids will be kids. It's their job to push the limits (how else are they going to learn how the world works?). It's our job to enforce the limits.

I have a friend who used to tell me about HER friend who never said the word "no" to their child because it would hurt their self esteem. As a rational human being, this is something I can't wrap my head around.

Back when my parents were kids, or when I was a kid myself... things were more old school. Rules were clear. Expectations were clear. Results were clear. In school or at home. Things were NOT all customized... for every little personality or age or gender or feelings of every little individual who was SO smart or SO lacking in intelligence. There were punishments and reprimands. Kids had self-esteem. They were kids too who did kid things. Parents were not 'afraid' to tell their kids no.
They were not afraid of their kid's fragile "self-esteem" or self-confidence or lack there of.
They were not afraid of limiting.... their child's ability for self-expression or creativity.
They parented.
They lead.
They did not have their child lead and then they tag along behind their child.... with a conundrum of "oh my, how do I manage my child? He is so smart but strong willed!" or "How do I manage my child but not impair or limit her SMARTNESS or creativity or off center humor and language use?" ie: my kid said his classmate's hair looked like a cirrus shaped poop pile and that it was funny when everyone laughed with him about it right in the middle of a lesson in the classroom. But my son was SO inspired and SO clever with his vocabulary use and metaphors.... how could the Teacher say he was "naughty" and how could the Teacher get mad at him and give him a consequence??? Sure, he's made comments about that same boy before and they call it teasing... but really he is just humorous, he is just being silly...I don't know why they find him irksome and naughty or why the other boy finds him harassing.... My son's Teacher does not nurture him or his smartness or creativity and he is above grade level for reading and math etc. I think he is just bored....."

I work at a school.
Sure I am no expert.
But comparing... how it was when I was a kid growing up with rules and reprimands... versus nowadays with kids and how BRATTY they are. Well. There is a very clear difference.
And, what is the difference between a kid being :
silly for their age, or, naughty, or bratty, or genius with a creative humor, or inappropriate, or acting like a 4 year old when they are 4 years old?
Well, if/when it disrupts... the CLASSROOM and other students and Teachers, then it is a problem and if it occurs often or repeatedly.
Or, if it is something that just happens at home.
Time and place.
And knowing how to behave in each place (school or home or out at a store), does make a difference.

Once, there was a 4th grade boy, who had such the personality. And it was a noxious sassy back-talking uppity personality and he insulted other kids and was mean and thought he could just do whatever he wanted. Because well, he was SO smart and he's showing his creativity! But OH was he SMART! As though, being "smart" is a free ticket in life.
His parents thought so. EVEN if, he caused trouble... to classmates and in class everyday, despite being talked to in 10,000 different manners and techniques and approaches, he was just a brat. AND it was even worse... because his parents let him. In fact, they would get real pissed off, if he was scolded. So in the end, well... the Teacher/class just had to let him be. They had to. If not his parents would get litigious about it.
But the thing is, this boy was not like this, all of a sudden, ONLY in 4th grade. No. It was from before he got to this age and grade.

So many kids I encounter everyday at school, who just are little islands unto themselves. And they have no, remorse or hindsight or empathy about their noxious behavior.
I have a friend that teaches middle school. And she said it is almost 'scary' how so many kids nowadays, are just void of having a thoughtful conscious. They just don't. And the parents back their brat kid, up. And if reprimanded, well one time, a Teacher was actually yelled at by a parent. "How DARE you punish my child and have him stay in for recess!" And the parent complained to the Principal. So well, the teacher just cannot do anything anymore, to correct her classroom.
Real, pathetic.

I am not saying that "Danny" will be this way or is this way or is not "naughty" or is "naughty" or who knows what because of lingo.
However, I am just relaying, what I have seen and come across.
As most Moms do.