Lost.... - Cary,NC

Please do as suggested and get help for your entire family.

I know you are trying your best. Your description of your exchange with your son sounds fraught with struggles though. Negative scripting (asking him "don't do" instead of giving him a positive "To Do"), kicking him out of the cooking instead of first trying to ask him to clean up the mess, the power struggle within the moment and the fact that you were so emotionally upset that you were shaking-- all of this, from an objective standpoint, feels somewhat extreme to me.

Your description of your depression is also a sign that something isn't right at home. Not being able to get out of bed sounds like clinical depression to me. You need to figure out what's going to help *You* have balance in your life before you can try to help your son find that balance.

It sounds like the therapist had some concrete advice with the family therapy. I'm not judging you, and I also know from direct experience that bipolar disorder can be very difficult for the entire family of origin, no matter *who* suffers from it. I also feel like you might consider what sort of questions you ask your son about yourself, because that can be emotionally loaded for children. They can barely answer "why" questions about themselves even in their teens, so I'm not sure asking a 5 year old to clarify between you feeling sad/mad is the tack I'd take. This *would* be a good question to raise in family counseling, where everyone would have some support, but it's a big scary one to a little kid his age.

I hope you find the health and help you so desire. I have watched one of my sisters and her daughter both struggle with bipolar disorder and it's a long, long process. (So I understand your son's therapists assertions.) I also have an aunt with the same, and it's been a long hard road there as well. The aunt is a cautionary tale at her best; my sister and niece are more hopeful. Therapy sucks, sometimes, I know it. It's hard stuff and just a killer some days. But, there is hope if we are brave enough to face the hard stuff and just *do* it.

I have a sister with (bad) bipolar disorder, so I see this from a different perspective. I see how it affects her children.

1. When she can't get out of bed, her kids don't understand. They get something is bothering her and she's sad, but they don't get why. Of course, they feel like it has something to do with THEM. What they are doing isn't good enough to make mom happy. Who they are isn't enough to make mom happy. Somehow, they are causing her to be like this...yet, they don't know why.

2. They do NOT understand adult illnesses. Bipolar disorder can be very complicated and heavy. They don't understand why some days you are OK and some days you are not. They are hyper-sensitive to the fact that today can be a bad or a good day. They are always on edge.

3. She struggles with seeing that she hasn't established enough boundaries. We tell her often, that her son doesn't seem to have a clear understanding of boundaries. We see her trying, but she feels like she establishes boundaries and disciplines often. The fact is, she soesn't. Everyone else sees it, but her. I don't know...possibly, could this be the case with you?

4. He's terrified to make you "sad." That's why he yelled like he did. Whenever he does something bad or irritating, you have to discipline. He interprets this, as he's making you sad...and he is responsible for your sadness.

I would REALLY encourage you to attend counseling with your son, and get counseling personally. Are you on medication? I am not one to suggest medication for every little thing. However, when you're to the point that you can't get out of bed some days...it's time to try something else. When you are in bed, you are not a parent. Period. You are under the covers with your illness and completely unavailable to your child. I can't tell you how profoundly that has affected my sister's son. Please get help, there is no shame in it!! It's a chemical imbalance and requires care, just like every other ailment. The fact is, you have no idea how bad this really is. It could be not all that bad, but you don't know. We saw my sister, and we knew she was SO bad off. To her, it wasn't as bad...sure, she felt terrible...but she simply could not see how bad. It's like trying to look at your nose, you are too close to see it. Too close to the situation, to really know what's going on. Get some help, outside help that can see the situation better. I wish you the best.

I am guessing here. I'm no expert.

He is picking up on your bi-polar and it makes no sense to him.

You refused a 5 yo a hug and a kiss. You rejected him.You made him feel like YOU were feeling that HE was a failure.

Continue to take advantage of your family therapy and everything and anything that is out there available to you.

.

From your description of the situation, I do hope you will do counseling sessions with your son. It sounds like there are some communication issues that are unsatisfying for both of you. And since you are experiencing days when you are too depressed to cope, you can be fairly certain your son is probably dealing with some real confusion, sadness and anger of his own.

And he's simply too young, too lacking in life experience, to have a clue about how to deal with this. It's not his job to make your life better, whether that would be through better focus or more motivation. He's simply not equipped to manufacture those. Good counseling will give you both new tools and techniques for dealing with your own needs and finding ways to communicate more effectively. He may also be able to learn skills that help him organize his thinking and activities better.

I'm not sure why you're putting him in activities he's not interested in. For kids that young, that's not usually very fruitful, and it gives them more to fret about, be distracted by, and resent.

I'm sorry your life is so challenging. It sounds like this is far from the experience you hoped to have as a mother. I'm assuming you are on medication for the bipolar problem, but if so, your prescription may need tweaking to get you better results. If you're NOT receiving medical care for this, please do so. It could make a tremendous difference for you and your son.

You last paragraph really struck me, where you write that some days you are so sad and depressed that you say in bed. Where is your son when this happens? Who is taking care of him when you can't get out of bed? Maybe he sees this and his outburst was a very insightful reaction to that?

First off, has he had his hearing checked and has he been screened for auditory processing disorder? Sometimes kids who don't attend to instructions don't hear them or hear them correctly. Be sure to rule out something simple like that first. Does he go to pre-school? If he does, what did his teachers say? Has he been evaluated by the school system where he will be entering Kindergarten? If he hasn't, perhaps you can contact them now and see if he can be observed by the SPED team (in addition to the typical screening) so that they can see if he has any identifiable issues that they can work on when he starts in the fall.

There is a wonderful book called "Raising Your Spirited Child" which explains a lot of the traits of "oddball" or "difficult" children. I found it to be a tremendous help when dealing with my oldest son, who was definitely different from birth but not disabled. I had him seen by a psychologist at age 3 because he seemed disproportionately angry for such a little guy and she "ruled out" ADHD but he was diagnosed with ADHD when he was 7. It's hard - if not nearly impossible - to accurately diagnose some issues in kids this young but that doesn't mean that there isn't a genuine problem that may be diagnosed and treated later. But in the absence of that, at least understanding more about your child's temperament can help put his behavior in context.

It may very well be that you have a developmentally normal child who takes time to warm up to new situations. My oldest was like that and I had to learn over time when to push and when to respect his boundaries. It may be that because of you own experiences, you are projecting "issues" onto your child that are simply his personality and not something "wrong" that needs to be treated. It may be that you have unrealistic expectations of what he can do at this age. Or it could be that your instinct is dead on and that something will be "diagnosed" later.

The problem is that right now, you just have to accept him the way that he is and let him be himself. Continue with the therapy, continue to try to find activities that he may enjoy (and empathetic coaches/leaders who will patiently work with him) etc. and try to relax a bit. If you aren't confident with his therapy, then find someone new. If other people are telling you that there is nothing diagnosably wrong with him, then maybe you should trust that - is it possible that you have a bit of anxiety that is making you see this in a more negative light than it is? Is it possible that he's just a regular kid an you're seeing his age-appropriate behavior in a negative light? I'm not literally questioning you - obviously I don't know you or your child - but perhaps those are questions that you can ask the therapist and others whose opinions you trust. Sometimes it's not our kids, it's us, kwim?

I will say a prayer for you that you get some answers to your questions and feel like you and your son are moving forward. Best wished to you (and get that book!).

Okay... I see a few red flags in there that concern me and this is ONLY based on this post okay? I'm not a neurologist or psychiatrist so I'm not suggesting a diagnosis but... I think you need to have your son evaluated to see if he's on the Autism Spectrum. Any of the following doctors can make a diagnosis through comprehensive evaluations: Developmental-Behavioral Pediatricians, Child Neurologists, and Child Psychologists or Psychiatrists. It basically will depend on which of these types of doctors you can get in to see first.

Here are a couple of links for you to check out.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/screening.html

http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/facts.html

The second link, Autism Facts, has a few lists of symptoms to check out. If you find that your son seems to fit many or most of the symptoms frequently, occasionally, or all the time then you'll want to have him evaluated professionally.

The reason that I'm suggesting he be evaluated is that a lot of what you wrote sounds like how I felt in the early days with my daughter. It reminds me of her behaviors on a good day. But also because you said that you have bipolar, which being a neurological disorder means you have a high chance of him having a genetic predisposition for bipolar and other neurological disorders. I don't say this to scare you, only to let you know that if he does have something that can be treated, early intervention is key.

Has anyone tested him for auditory processing issues? It's like hearing dyslexia. Someone with auditory processing issues has trouble following directions and sometimes seem not to be paying attention because they're still trying to figure out what you said earlier. One of my kids with APD is very in tuned to faces because he relies on them for extra info, thus, his interpretation that you were sad not angry - maybe he saw worry in your face as well as anger?...

anyway more on APD http://www.nidcd.nih.gov/health/voice/auditory.html

Hey there. I have a possible diagnostic thought, but I want to make it clear that I am NOT a professional in a relevant field (and if I were, it would be unprofessional of me to proffer a diagnosis over the Internet). So, this is just a possibility based on some of the symptoms you describe. BUT, I recommend that you get your son tested for Auditory Processing Disorder. This isn't necessarily a hearing problem, it's more like a learning disability -- when children have trouble with the link between words and their meanings.

I also get the impression that this therapist is not treating you respectfully. Is there any other practitioner in the area who takes your insurance? A therapist should be clear about what she thinks IS going on, and she shouldn't be withholding information about your child.

Finally, one thought about the approach of kindergarten is to act as POSITIVE as you can about it to your son. If what you feel is raw fear, he'll pick up on that, and he'll go into it with all kinds of anxiety. Try talking it up ("You'll be learning to read and write, and it'll be so much fun"). Most importantly, you can try "playing kindergarten." Just say, "let's pretend I'm the teacher. We're going to talk about the alphabet." That'll help your son go into it knowing what to expect, which could help to mitigate some his challenges with focus, processing, etc. Or, at the very least, it'll help you come up with some concrete observations that you can pass along to his NEW therapist.

Best wishes,

Mira

P.S. I was an odd duck too. It was not a happy childhood, but I think it helped me develop empathy and an observant outsider's perspective. Not sure I'd want to be evil enough to have risen to the top of the jr. high heap, if you know what I mean ;)

Alright I know you said it is none of those disorders but he is young.

What I would suggest is what we did with our journey with Andy. Keep giving him what he needs at that time. Never commit to he is or is not this because you will ignore evidence one way or another. You son does sound a bit like our Andy who still has a mess of issues but is well on his way to finally fitting it, he just turned 12.

you are describing my oldest at that age. I know you love him and this may come off wrong but quit loving him so much. Cut some apron strings not all of them but within reason. Get him active in kid activities that don't include you. try scouts. He is probably feeding off of you. He feels your negativity. and he is feeding off of it whether you mean to show it or not it shows. Let him be a kid if that is just going to the park and playing without mom helicoptering over him. sunshine will do you and him both good. there are not rules per se to follow. I disagree he doesn't need more boundries he needs them to lessen to an age appropriate degree. jmo especially if the therapist isn't helping you any.

Oh my dear...you are struggling. I am in no way qualified to give you clinical recommendations. But...I think your boy is ok...I think you are the one that needs some extra help. How about you seek out some parenting classes. Talk to your therapist about counseling for you and your son. I don't know much about bi polar disorder...but even parenting without having a clinical psychiatric disorder is hard. I can't even imagine the struggles you face. You need to learn how to work with your son.

His comment to you is true. He sees your sadness...sees you staying in bed. Soooo many times our actions of anger are REALLY because of sadness,frustration or fear. I think all 3 of those things run through your mind all the time because you feel you are failing him even though you are trying so hard. You are worried about him and ready to burst with emotion even at the slightest making of a mess in the kitchen.

It is wonderful to hear that you love on him, have family dinner etc. THose are fabulous. But...you need to learn some coping skills and parenting skills. Parenting is tough...knowing how to set boundaries...knowing what makes kids tick..etc.

Please don't ever withold affection because you are "angry". It does not teach them a lesson...it actually is counter productive. Oh...my heart is sad for you right now. You are trying hard and still feeling "lost".

Look into some parenting classes... also google parent coaches. There are sooo many nowadays. I am our PTA's Parent Education Chairperson at my kids' school and I find people in our community to come speak at our school. We have had amazing speakers come from backgrounds in child behavior, behavior coaches to marriage and family therapists. THey are out there and have a wealth of knowledg to help families.

Good luck and best wishes. I really believe in praising positive behavior and giving rewards for positive behavior. It has helped so much in our home and lessened the emotional outbursts.

Well, 5 year olds are tricky. Emotions are tricky. Mental issues are tricky. Family is tricky. You have yourself a big ole ball of tricky.

Here's the deal - It's not good to teach your kid that emotions are scary. He may be scared that you're angry or sad and what that means. If he sees you stay in bed all day when you're sad and then he starts associating his behavior with being the cause of that, that won't be good. You want to make sure you don't make HIM responsible for how you feel. Connect the punishment to the BEHAVIOR not the EMOTION. You can say "I was sad that we can't cook together because you weren't following the rules, but I am looking forward to next time".

Also - boundaries are not about punishment. Boundaries are giving your son appropriate behaviors, responsibilities and rewards for his age. Your son being responsible for if you are happy or sad is NOT an appropriate boundary (again, not saying you do this.... just an example). Also, if he's a 5 year old and has most of the things he'd like - that may not be appropriate boundaries. How does he get them? What happens when you say no to something? How does he behave when he receives a gift of something he didn't want? If you tell him it's time to clean up and move on to another activity or get ready to go to bed, how does he behave? Those behaviors from him will tell if he has good boundaries. Boundaries are not a measure of how much you love him, it's what you are teaching him as far as appropriate behavior.

Also - There is a difference between punishment and consequences. Consequence for spilling something for picking it up when he shouldn't is to clean up the mess and he can't cook with you whatever you were planning. Exactly what you did. There shouldn't ALSO be a punishment for that of a swat or whatever (not sure if you did or if the swat comment was just in general).

I think what you did is good - you applied an appropriate consequence to the behavior. I would make how you FEEL about the behavior irrelevant at 5 (unless you are also teaching empathy.... but that's more like at 3). Even if you didn't have any emotional feeling about him spilling the thing he picked up, his BEHAVIOR is still not ok. make sense?

Good luck!

I think you should pay a little more attention to what your family is telling you. They are in a position to see it all go down and make observations. Assuming they aren't wacko I would listen to them and put some more structure and boundaries into his life. Kids really really do need them. They need to know what is expected of them and they need it to be consisitent. You may think you are doing it more than you really are.

Also-I would be very careful that he doesn't hear you talking about him and that he doesn't think there is something wrong with him because of all the doctors and therapyt sessions.

Lastly-you ARE sad about this and it showed to your son today. That is why he said it. Kids are smart that way..they know more than we think,

Maybe he knows, you are 'disappointed' in him. And for a little child's mind... "sad" is the same thing.

A child, knowing that their parent is disappointed in them or 'sad'... makes them feel, inadequate. Never being able to 'please' the parent.
Perhaps, this is how he feels. Or how he interprets, the reactions toward himself, by his parents.

How a parent, views their child, affects them. For better or worse.
Not that the parent is doing it, consciously.

Next: do you get any time away for yourself?
If not, then do so and do not feel guilty about it.
You have to take care of yourself too. Mentally.
If a parent is depressed/tired/mad/sad... it affects the child. Too.
But the child does not know how, to facilitate their feelings to express that. Nor appropriately. They are just children.

Children, feel, deeply. Even if they cannot express it accurately. Hence they act out.
Their hearts, are tender.

Maybe, does he get any independent time or time to just hang out? What are his interests and/or talents? Nurture that. Nurture HIM. Watch the 'expectations' you have of him. Keep it in line with his age and development.
Talk with him, about anything. Let him lead the conversations and express himself.
My daughter loves, 'chat' time with me. In which I just let her ramble on and chat about anything in her head or questions she has. It is a 'bonding' thing for us. It makes her feel, more settled and grounded. Which "activities" does not do that for her, in her feelings toward me and in her bonding with me. Thus, I go by her cues too. In what draws her closer and makes her feel 'closer' to me.
Each child, has different needs, and needs for feeling secure and bonded and nurtured, by their Mom.
A Mom, is a soft place to fall, for the child.
Unconditionally.

I'm sorry, I don't really know much about this, but my heart goes out to you! I did want to mention home school for your situation. It would save you and your son a lot of grief. There are many ways to homeschool, so that it can work in your situation.
I believe children do better learning at home, especially in cases like yours. The common myth is they need school for social skills, but actually they learn confidence much better at home, with their families. Whatever you chose, I hope you sense God's comfort and guidance. You're a wonderful mom to reach out, and your son is so blessed!

I'll pray for you:) I'm going to suggest something and I hope it works for you as well as it has for our family, thanks to my husband. We have two sons who are 4 years apart--one is 6 years old and the other is almost 2 years old. My hubby works out of town most of the week, making me a single mom during the week, which stinks, but I try to do many things I can with my boys even though they may not always enjoy them. My youngest has been a handful since birth. He's a fussy little guy who has gotten much better thanks to his dad. My older boy is an easy child who enjoys computer games and books. I have always complained to my hubby of how difficult it is for me to raise our youngest child at times. If you read some of my previous posts, you'll see what I wrote. When my husband comes home, he spends alot of time with the boys especially with the youngest. They wrestle, go for walks, play hockey, play ball, go to the comic store, spend time playing computer games, and they also cuddle. All of the stuff that my husband does with our boys, has made the boys much happier and content. Both of my boys are social and confident around people. My hubby was always an "oddball" growing up and he attributes that label because his father was not around to spend time with him. He always felt that if his dad was around more and spent more time with him, showing him all the stuff that boys do, he would have flourished more. My hubby refuses to make the same mistake as his dad did. My hubby is a strong believer that boys need "daddy time" with dad and boy (no pun intended), and yes, it has worked wonders for our boys. Every night that my hubby is away at work, he calls our boys or skypes them. We moms are awesome and we do so much for our kids, but sometimes, children need daddy lovings:)

Wishing you the best,

M.

You have my sympathy.

In any situation like this there are layers upon layers upon layers of issues going on. There is not a single issue and there is not a single fix. Beware of anyone who tells you there is one "real issue" that is at the root of everything. Especially beware of anyone who tells you that everything is your fault, and if you could just fix your parenting, he'd be fine.

Be prepared to go through a lot of professionals, a lot of books, and a lot of ideas to find answers that work for your family. Therapy might be helpful....if you can find a good therapist who is a good match. An evaluation by a pediatric neurologist might be helpful: they have entirely different skill sets and perspectives than psychiatrists. If your OT is not helpful, find another one. Take the best and leave the rest, don't let the turkeys get you down.

If you know any "master parents", it might also be helpful to ask them to come hang out with you for a while and offer their observations and ideas. A "master parent" is not someone with one or two perfect kids! A "master parent" is someone who has worked with many children and raised at least a few themselves, some of whom have special needs. A "master parent" has seen a lot, doubted themselves, cried themselves to sleep, been called an idiot, feared for their children, and has come out the other side. If you can find such a person, their feedback and perspective might help you find the help you need for yourself and your son.

You have my prayers. If I lived closer, you'd have more tangible support from me as well. Good luck.

You could go ahead and contact the school where he will be attending kindergarten, and let them know that he may need extra help adjusting. They may be able to give you advice, match him up with the right teacher, and will probably give you questionnaires to fill out like for behavior issues or symptoms of autism. Find out if the pre-k teacher will share her experiences with the K teacher. If he has trouble with verbal instructions, then try picture instructions and schedules.
My son has Aspergers/ADHD. Even though he's not interested in any team sports, I still try to make sure he has a good variety of experiences. For swim lessons, I had him take one-on-one lessons with a swim teacher who was also a school teacher experienced with ADHD kids. For science day camp, I went with him every day so I could take him out of the room if he started knocking chairs over. I also went with him to cub scout day camp. He was able to participate in soccer and other sports drills one-on-one with an adult, but did not seem to be able to participate in the group. He started taking ADHD meds halfway through 2nd grade and it has helped him stay more focused at school.

He sounds like my son... and a large majority of other boys I know his age!

You've received so much wise advice and comments that on this department all I'd say would be found to be redundant. I would like to let you know that I must force the urgency for you to find a child therapist that you feel comfortable with. It does not matter how good or well recommended one is, if there is not a sense of togetherness in you, then no one is working for the benefit of your child. Take him out of those sessions N-O-W! As someone else mentioned, it would be best if you go to a place with both play therapy and parent/child therapy. Also, have you tried a neurologist to do some testing? This may be the better way to go given the symptoms you described.

Regarding his phlethora of unsucessful sports/activities...he's only five. Don't be comparing him to how others do. He's the son of the Creator of the Universe! A gift in itself. He'll find his niche soon enough. If we were all to be sucessful Yankees, where would the Mets be? LOL

Now, you have to learn to relax. The ending to your saga showed so much anxiety that it kind of broke my heart to see a young mother drowining in her own exasperation. Again, as many others did say, you are passing these feelings of confussion to your precious boy, whom you even say "planned" for so lovingly. You love him so much that you are sqeezing the air out of him, child. Can you let go, and let God? Don't you ever forget that God has planned our lives accordingly to His perfect plan, and as I heard it once from a preacher, "Where God has put a period, don't let the devil put a question mark."

I hope my simple words will help ease a little your heavy burden. Thanks for letting all of us into your home and heart. <3 From one mother to another, I love you, MT.