I'm Desperate for Effective Discipline - Help!!

Spirited children are often very, very bright. My short answer would be to look into the Positive Discipline website and buy a couple books. I have found that when my son is antsy and acting up, he often responds better to questions that draw him to the conclusion I am needing. He's home now, so best go!

Regarding spanking, described below: Spanking a kid, or hitting a kid with an implement as described below, is a great tool IF you want to teach your child that it's OK to hit people, that it's OK to cause pain to others, and that it's OK to bully others into submission. Spanking is also great if you want your child to have a much greater chance of growing up with serious emotional problems. The research shows this. In other words, please ignore the ridiculous advice below about how great it is to humiliate and bully a kid into submission.

That said, there are effective ways to discipline that don't require physical aggression by the parent. I agree with others who are looking at your example with the truck and seeing room for improvement. One thing I've read is, don't say "please" when giving an order to a child. "Please" makes it sound like a request that they have the option of not following. I also recommend just taking the truck away if he's not doing what he's supposed to.

The Love and Logic books are very good and have great, concrete suggestions for how to instill discipline in a loving, consistent manner - not hitting involved!

Good luck!

I can tell you what *mostly* work for us. First, we use a combination of methods. I consider them tools in the toolbox. Each is useful in some instances but is not necessarily correct in every situation/age/child. I have multiple tools but still need to use them consistently and methodically - otherwise it would be more confusing for all involved. I use 123, privileges taken away and Time outs. With those I use the request-warning-consequence format followed by a discussion. I also do Time ins (google it if your not familiar and are curious) and conversations. Positive reinforcement is absolutely key in our house. Without it, we are a mess (all of us).

Secondly, I try to keep in mind that this behavior is normal (not to be confused with acceptable or tolerated) and serves as a way for kids to test boundaries and learn about their reality. This gives me patience and reminds me that this too shall pass. I am better able to stay in control of myself that way.

Third, I *try* to never loose control. My understanding is that often a child throws a fit when they feel out of control. They have a big feeling (sad, angry, frustrated, scared, etc) which then compounds. Its a cyclicle process. Often, their fit begins and continues as a reaction to their original feelings which they haven't been able to developmentally grok; They aren't able to process or communicate their emotions and it literally overwhelms them. Suddenly, we are not having a fit because we weren't allowed to play with the truck, we are having a fit because of the truck AND because of these huge feelings we had about the truck in the first place.

When I stay focused, firm and loving - when I stay in control - the tantrum stops quickly, the fear dissolves, and (big perk) I am fairly unaffected (less frustration, more energy, etc.) and we are able to continue about our business. When I loose my internal cool (doesn't matter if externally I am still in control or not) I am sucked into their overwhelm, the drama of the moment. I loose control of the situation and in turn, the child has a harder time regaining her inner cool.

When I can detach from the frustration I feel way better. So do my kids.

The last tid bit I'll mention is that in my house, blood sugar, enough sleep, exercise, mental stimulation and snuggle time are key. Our house turns into a serious war zone when my kids don't get snacks, fresh air and rest. I can time out until I'm blue in the face, but if one of us hasn't gotten enough sleep or is hungry, I may as well be sending the wall to time out. It just doesn't work. Likewise, they turn on each other and me when they don't get to run around in circles, touch gross things, scream like monkeys and generally get fresh air. We *have* to go outside every darn day. Which I hate, especially today. I think I need a raft and life jacket just to leave the house. But anyway. Hugs+affection+love yous+debriefing are snuggle time. It's like a ten minute emotional boost. They really help, especially when the positive reinforcement has been hard to come up with, that day.

You can read my questions, and clearly I don't have this down all the time. But like I say, this is what mostly works for us. Good luck!

Hi Laur,

Time out doesn't work for all kids. I think you have to find his 'currency'. Enroll him in stuff he likes to do. Then if he doesn't behave you have leverage - "you can only go to swim practice if you behave" etc. Would he respond to being your 'helper'? If he's helping you pick up or clean or set the table or whatever he won't have time to misbehave!!!!!!!

Also - and this is just my own personal soapbox. In the case of the truck I think you take the truck away. I used time out with my spirited daughter only when she needed time to calm herself down. I didn't use it as "punishment" per say, because it wasn't effective for her. What I did do was take away whatever she wasn't doing the way I wanted her to do it. So I would say "the truck goes on the floor or it goes away". etc. That way she was able to match the consequence with the behavior.

I also think with a spirited child (at least with my daughter) I was more effective if I DIDN"T match her emotion. So, I would do a lot of whispering. yes, it sounds crazy but it actually works. They calm down to listen to you. You have to repeat yourself like a gazillion times, but it will work. My daughter would yell because she wanted control. If I yelled back she just yelled louder. So I had to find something else.

3 is really tough. I feel for you.

Hope that helps. Good luck.

One thing that might help, instead of telling him not to drive the truck on your dresser (he hears "drive the truck on the dresser") but rather, "trucks go on the floor." Or, please do THIS instead of do not...

J.

We take away a much-loved privilege: TV time on weekends (she's in school and can't watch during the week) or story time at bedtime. Ooooo that's painful for our daughter, and it works.

We just went through a big phase with my 4 yr old son where our prior forms of punishment didn't work anymore. I ended up taking all of his toys away and his tv shows too. He had to shadow me or my husband all day long and earn his toys back one by one. Yes, it is time consuming to have to do an all day discipline with a child for a few days but it is worth it in the long run when you break the behavior and have a different child to live with.

I also had to spend 40 minutes holding his bedroom door closed while he tantrumed, when he calmed down I made him wash my kitchen floor on hands and knees as payment for the time I had to spend holding the door. Now I only have to start listing the chores I have to do and he will change his behavior so I can spend the time cleaning instead of punishing him.

He also now has a chart of daily chores that he needs to complete daily regardless of behavior and he can earn pretend money for completing his chores nicely and then use it to buy something from my "store".

I also am reading through the book, "Parenting with Love and Logic", it is helping me to understand so much about my role as a parent and how I can raise a responsible child who makes good decisions.

A lot of that sounds like normal 3 yo behavior (not that you should just accept it!).Sassy back talk, not listening is typical. He loses it at home bc he's held it together all day at preschool and he just can't contain it anymore, home is safe. I agree with everyone else that spanking is a mistake. It teaches that people who are bigger than you can hit you. Makes no sense to try to convey to a kid to stop hurting others by hurting him. I imagine you'd begin to see him hitting his little brother if you started with that nonsense.

I think there is still a lot of room for prevention at that age. When he gets home from preschool is he tired and hungry? Has it been stressful to be at school? Is he jealous that little bro is home with you all day and he thinks he's missing out? Are you rushing around, expecting a battle as soon as he comes in and acting defensively? Maybe he needs some quiet time with you. Much of what he's doing is attention-seeking. The truck thing, for ex. And I think once they get going with something like that, it is easier to keep doing it, and if you are getting all exercised about it, all the better for him to keep going. So if you can keep your cool that goes a long way. Rather than telling him what not to do, tell him what to do and help him do it. "Oh here, this is a great road for that truck" and redirect.

If he is screaming and yelling at you, keep your calm and talk calmly to him rather than getting upset (takes a LOT of practice!!). Whispering, as someone else suggested, also can work. He is getting a pay off for these behaviors-a rise out of you, additional attention, whatever. If you remove that payoff he won't want to continue.

If time out isn't working, stop using it.

Another thing that can help is creating a rhythm for the day. If he comes home from preschool then it is time for snack, then a book, then running around outside, or whatever it is that you do, it can help him. If he knows what is going to happen every day, it is predictable, it can really help. If he comes home to chaos, that will not work for him.

Clearly the holding the door thing isn't working. That would make me so stressed, and my daughter so stressed, it would have to exacerbate the situation. I am all for walking away. Calmly tell him "you may not speak to me like that, let me know when you are ready to be kind" or whatever it is then go on about your business. After a few times, he is not getting his pay out, he may change his behavior. Same with hitting."You may not hit" and separate from him. It's no fun for him to continue hitting you if you aren't getting upset and are walking away. Yes, he may follow and continue to try to hit you but if it comes to it, take the little one and go into a room that you can lock yourself into until he can calm himself. It won't work the first time but if this is all he gets every time he does that, he is likely to stop doing that. With DD as soon as she gets over the behavior, we go back to business as usual, there is no arbitrary time of separation or shaming or talking about it or whatever. As soon as she can be polite and calm, business as usual.

I find that often if she is wigging a lot, it is bc I am doing my own thing and she simply needs some time with me. Stopping what I am doing to sit down and read a book can go a long way for her sometimes.

I think talking about control may exacerbate the situation. Yes, clearly he is controlling here, but fighting it out for control can be a looooong battle that results in a bunch of losers. Finding a way to eliminate the controlling behaviors is really what you want. If you are going into it thinking about it being a battle, it will be. A book I found helpful (for all ages) is How to Talk So Kids Will Listen. You may want to check it out.

Another book I liked was Playful Parenting. Sometimes making something into a game can diffuse a situation. DD has said "No" (with great defiance and laying down the gauntlet) to some request and rather than battling it out over the no, changing the dynamic by being goofy or something, has solved the problem.

I think different things work for different kids, and not everything works all the time, so the more tools you have at your disposal the better. I think consistency is so important. If you say x will happen if DS does y. Then x needs to happen. And it needs to be immediate. Good luck. 3 is tough, though 4 they get more willful so getting a handle on it now is definitely a great idea.

what does he love to do the most at home..well besides pinch his brother and drive you crazy? Seriously tho...timeouts didn't work for my kids either. My oldest loved to watch TV so one night when she was acting a fool, I placed her in timeout right behind the couch. Then I walked over and turned the TV on to her favorite show and sat on the couch watching it without her. Needless to say, it worked! She was apologizing and hugging on me within a few minutes! Keep trying until you find one that works for him OR talk to his preschool and do the same thing they do.

BTW my oldest is 18 and she still remembers the couch thing and how much she hated it! makes me giggle!

I forgot to add one thing! My BIL says, "if you say it, mean it!" So, how many warnings/threats of timeout do you say before you actually go through with it? That was his point. If you say, "please stop or you will go in timeout!". So, the very next time it happens, he says..don't say a word, just march over there and bring them to timeout. Easy. Then they know that you mean business the first time you say it!

we do a bit of both - reward good behavior, punish bad behavior.

what is your son's favorite toy? my daughter has an obsession with animals that she sleeps with at night: unicorn pillow pet, baby jaguar, puppy, nala..... so if she's talking back, not listening, not sharing with her brother, jumping off the couch etc... she get's one of them taken away for the night - goes on a high shelf in the kitchen and she looses it until the next day. and she goes in the naught corner (start at 4 min - she's 4). if she keeps talking while she's in there - timer starts over. if she goes back in teh naughty corner for a second time during the day - she starts off with 5 minutes. set a timer when you do this... it's very important that they hear the time when their time is done. when it's done, ask why she was in there, explain what good behavior you do want, "i'm Sorry" hug kiss and done.

reward - so she really wanted this set of 7 tinkerbell dolls.... so she needs to earn them.... she get's a poker chip for doing something good or well: gettng dressed by her self in morning/night (PJ's). eating her meal (no playing, sitting the whole time, eating everything, bring plate sink). offering to share something with her brother with out me prompting her, cleaning her room everynight before bed (all buckets/shelves are labeled with words and pictures so she knows where everything goes). doing something nice with out prompting (she saw me doing laundry and offered to help pull it out of the dryer, helped pick out all the socks)

For every 10 poker chips she earns she gets a doll. she has a metal quart paint can (can buy them clean/new from home depot) i let her decorate it with stickers etc... so the poker chips dropping into the bucket makes a nice loud sound - that she's earned.

for the first one you want to be able to earn it somewhat quickly to get the momentum going.... so we started it saturday morning..... and by monday afternoon she had earned her first doll.... so then she was excited to earn more.

This is what works/worked for me:
When siblings do not get along nicely - separate as much as possible. Chances are they will miss each other and play nicely.
Your son is only 3; get effective NOW before it is too late. Avoid struggles at all cost! If your son gets a lot of negative resistance experience - he becomes better at it - precisely what you want to avoid. Speak once, act on the second time, to avoid just yelling and escalating the behavior and working yourself up. Tell the child what you want him to do (children have very limited imagination and experience) instead of what not to do. Go for win-win, if the child always loses in the struggle with you - he will resent you, so really you lost even if it seems like you won.
Just to give you an example with the truck:
Nick is running the truck over a dresser.... You say:
"Nick, please play with your truck on the floor or fly over the dresser" (telling the child what you want him to do and giving a choice) you are calm and your voice is normal. Nick ignores you or shouts "No!" You need to get to him right away, take his hands, hold him gently but firmly, look him in the eye (that's acting on the count two). "Nick, I understand you want to play with your truck, but I do not want my dresser damaged... how do we both get what we want?" (That’s going for a win-win). He may scream or throw a tantrum but you have to hold him until he comes up with some solution and you can help him by asking "Do you want to play?", "Do you understand I want my dresser nice and not scratched?" "Can you play on the floor?” "Can your truck fly?"... Etc. use your imagination.... You have to guide him to a moment when he comes up with a solution acceptable to him, promises to behave and does behave after that and understands that he has some control over the outcome.
It is not easy, it is time consuming. You must keep your cool and not scream or get upset. But usually, those types of interactions that produced the best results. The child tends to remember the reason and the logic and next time may even say "see, my truck is flying over the dresser; it is not touching it....my truck is good..."
Praise often for good behavior, give hugs, kisses, stickers, smiles...

You might want to talk to his teacher and see how he is different there and maybe gain some advise that way. We use timeout at my house and it works great for my boys, so that is the advise I always give.

If you want expert discipline advice that really works IF you follow through consistently is from Dr. Sears.

His book is wonderful and very thorough here:
http://www.amazon.com/Discipline-Book-Better-Behaved-Chil...

but some of the advice can be found online on his website here:
http://www.askdrsears.com/html/6/T060100.asp

scroll down to 'bothersome behavior' and it discusses some of the things here

Put a child-proof doorknob cover on the inside of his room - tie it on so he can't get it off. Or, put a gate-hook style lock on the outside of his door, up high. If you're going to confine him to his room, but he knows you're on the other side of it holding it closed, he'll continue to throw things and act out to get your attention. Tell him he's in there until he can calm down.

He doesn't care about scratching the dresser with the truck - he's really too young for empathy. So the discipline needs to be about not doing this, not WHY it's a bad idea. Take the truck away if he doesn't do the right thing. At 3, taking away stories later on for an offense now doesn't usually work, in my experience. Consequences need to be immediate and decisive. IF he trashes his room, remove the bulk of the toys from the room and put them in the attic. I let my son keep books and his blankie and his stuffed animals, but took the trucks and blocks and everything else, told him he could have them back when he treated his toys right.

Separating your son from you or his sibling is the only way. There is a book about kids like him - I think it's called "The Spirited Child" or something similar. He needs to learn to calm himself down, and when he can do that, he can come out.

Good luck.