When Your Child Is Completely Apathetic/non Responsive to Discipline

Counseling with and with/out the family.
Mom may need some on her own. I have no reason to think this, but are you talking AT her for WITH her?
Is she drinking or taking drugs?
Who is her safe person to talk to?
How often and are the disciplinary "talks" valid and how frequent?
Sounds like she can ignore everyone and that bugs you more than the issue. She now has power over you...
D.

Discipline is a hard thing for a teenager. The best way I have found is start taking things away that she really enjoys. Like Ipod, cell phone, etc. (She needs to give them to you, and if that doesn't work, take them without her knowledge). Let her know that respect is what is needed and she needs to talk about things and not keep them bottled up inside her.

This is a hard thing to comprehend, but eventually, it will work. You might find out things that are hard for her to cope with and this is the only way she has found to cope with them.

If this doesn't work, then maybe she needs someone outside of the family to talk to like a close friend of the family or someone else.

J.

As the mom of teenagers I can tell you they hate talking formally. Try talking to her as a by product of something else, shopping, talking about a character in a movie etc.

I'd also send her for therapy so she can learn how to better express her feelings and needs. You might suggest her mom go as well. It would benefit her to come up with different techniques of dealing with her daughter and her own frustrations. The more parents yell the less kids hear. Good luck

Your niece is very lucky to have a place she can go and know she is safe. Your sister like most of us has screamed sooo much at our kids they put a wall up for protection. She will use it even with you. she hasn't decided if she can trust you yet. she wants to make sure what she says never get back to her mom no matter what you hear! Don't try to pull stuff from her because she will resent it. Say nothing negative about her situation or her mom. You will be her safe haven with out any judgements.
Talk to a family counselor and see if you can get some advice.
Till then just "LISTEN"

Hi R.,

Your sister needs to learn a new disciplining style because obviously her screaming and yelling are not working. There are tons of books out there that you can probably be checked out from the library. Maybe start with Dr. Phil's Family First book and that will probably get your sister thinking in a different way about the dynamics that are being created between her, your niece and the rest of the family. Your sister and niece may also benefit from seeing a family therapist to work out issues that maybe triggering the screaming and yelling and contributing to the unhealthy relationship that is being created between them.

As for you and the rest of your family, I love the fact that you are close knit but take care not to get too involved in your sister's parenting issues otherwise your niece will feel like she's being ganged up, unloveable and judged and her friends, who may not be the best influence, will be the only ones that she will trust and confide in. What you should do now is just be her aunt and leave the discipling to your sister. What she needs from you now is for your to be her mentor and someone that can give her positive guidance on how to behave and what's expected of her as she enters into adulthood.

It's never too late to change the the dynamics of a family but it is up to your sister to start the ball rolling to make this happen for her and her niece. Once she finds an effective way to communicate and discipline her daughter that doesn't involve raised voices, then I'm sure you'll see a shift in your niece's attitude as well.

Good luck!

L.

Hi R.:
I come from a very large family, and there were five of us sisters all reared by extremely strict, disaplinarians. The reason your niece shuts her mother off, is because of your sisters lack of self control.I've said this before here and I'll say it again. Losing control,flying off the handle, and screaming at your child,will eventually result in a loss of respect and communication. After years of enduring the high pitched shrills, Kids learn to mute that out. It goes through one ear and out the other. Its An intelligent childs way to preserve their own sanity. Your niece is a straight A student. What is all the yelling about? The reason,your niece won't convide in you, is because you are to close to her mother and she fears the consequences,of sharing private matters with you. How sad, for this girl. as I would imagine, she has a real need to be able to speak to someone she could trust. Someone,she could look to for comfort or help. You appear to be sincere in your willingness to help,however,you cannot expect your niece to open up to you,unless your willing to keep your conversations with her confidential. If you are offering your niece A shoulder, merely to get information from her, to pass on to your sister, then you ARE NOT that someone your niece needs. If its your intent to help the girl,then you have to make a promise,to her ,to keep your conversations strictly between the two of you.And KEEP that PROMISE. If your not able to do that, then you won't be doing her or her mother a service. Your niece and her mother both should attend counseling.If this conflict between mother and daughter continues,your sister takes the chances of losing what small line of communication she might have with her,and it could very easily create problems as far as the girls grades. I'm suprised she still takes pride in her achievements,while there is such turmoil between them. I hope your niece and your sister seek help soon. J.

When I read this post, it made me think of a story I recently read in "Chicken Soup for the Mother's Soul 2".
Here is the link to the story - page 207 called "Close Your Mouth, Open Your Arms"...
http://books.google.com/books?id=Wgp49nTZ6R0C&pg=PA20...

Good reading ;o)

My niece is 12 and I get the same basic responses as you do when I try to talk to her. I realized that talking to her about why she is/was disciplined is pointless. Her dad and stepmom already yelled at her enough she knows. So we don't talk about it.

Like another mom said, talk about everything else. School, friends, music, tv, whatever you and her have in common. For my niece and I it's books we are both avid readers and love animals. So her and I take an afternoon and hit up Barnes and Noble and Starbucks, have a mocha frapachino and browse the bargain books. I learn more about her, what she is thinking, who she hangs out with, how she likes or dislikes anything really, in that one afternoon then in 6 hours spent trying to talk to her.

Another thing you might do is to let her know you are there unconditionally. My niece and I have an agreement, she is ever in a situation she can't handle or wants/needs out and can't call her dad then she is to call me, anytime day or night and I will come get her no questions asked. It's a safety net for her and her parents to know she will call me if that situation ever happens.

Hang in there, teenage years are rough on our kids and you are being a fantastic aunt already!

Hi R., Here is my two cents worth. Don't associate not talking with not listening. If she is as smart as you say she is taking it all in. Don't give up. Keep talking. One of the best pieces of advise that was given to me was "stop and listen to yourself, see what you are doing as if you were another person" I too use to yell and scream at my children then one day I tuned into myself and how I was acting. I stopped in mid-ranting, took myself out of the room, counted to whatever it took to calm down. Then I came back into the situation, apoligized to the kids and proceeded to express my feelings about their behavior in a more rational manner. The kids were so confused that they left the room and finished what I had asked them to do. What I learned was that when I lost my temper, they were in control, when I was able to speak calmly and lowered the volume of my voice, I was in control. I have shared that secret with my kids, and now when they begin to loose their "cool" and I am there I just excuse myself and leave the room. They get the hint and then what I hear is a rational adult conversing with the child/children. Tell your sister to not relinquish her control but instead take it back. Teens are exasperating but they will eventually grow out of it, and then you will appreciate them as adults.

I agree 100% with Julia M.

Furthermore, consider this:

Put the situation on its head. Pretend this isn't your niece, and isn't a member of the family. Pretend that the person your sister is screaming at is her best friend, someone she loves deeply & who loves her. Your sister starts screaming at her over something her friend has done. Her friend, as an adult, would probably do one of two things: Either stand there and take it, in an emotional dead pan until your sister stopped and then either present her case calmly or tell her she'll talk to her later and walk out before she lost her own temper. OR the friend attacks back and then probably storms out. What would YOU do if a friend started screaming at you? Especially if you didn't feel you warranted it? You'd probably either think she was going through some major sh**, or had become unhinged. Possibly both. Your niece doesn't have the option of walking out. At least, not yet that she's realized.

By going deadpan your niece is actually taking the high road, AND showing your sister a great deal more respect then she probably deserves. If an adult is screaming at ME it had BETTER be because I'm in imminent danger of dieing or killing someone, or because I'm really far away and they're trying to get my attention.

Your niece isn't being taught how to be a confidant, self assured, problem solving adult. If you're LUCKY she'll move far away as soon as she possibly can, blossom and come into her own strength, and decide to come home and continue a relationship with her family on adult terms.

Hopefully her grades will continue strong enough to be able to do this at college. OTW the military is another way to get out of town fast. Of course, if you're not lucky, she either won't want to start a new adult relationship with her family again, or she'll turn to drugs, or she'll get into an (or a series of) abusive relationships. Although, that will probably happen anyway unless SHE'S lucky AND smart. After all...Imagine a boyfriend who treats her the way her mum does. Not a pretty picture, but one she's being trained for.

I wish all of you the best in this situation, and I'm SURE you all love her. It's unfortunate she's being taught not to respect herself or trust others...& I reeeeaaally hope you may turn into the person she does trust. One psychological "trick" to help install that (if you decide you want to be her person she can trust...which means you have to choose her over your sister...and that may not be something you're willing or want to do) is to decide from here on out that your niece is an adult. If you THINK of her as an adult, and talk to her like an adult, you may start getting some very adult responses back...because she'll start modeling the way you treat her and start treating you the same way. You have to really believe it yourself though...otherwise your tone and body language will be off.

Good Luck, to all of you!!!

Hi R., Wow talk about being between a rock and a hard place! You are a great Aunt for trying so hard to do the right thing for everyone. The only thing I could think of is to write her a well thought out, heart-felt letter. Nothing negative in there at all. Something that tells her all you want her to know (that you will be there for her always no matter what, list all the things you love about her, that you know she is a great kid even tho she gets yelled at...whatever) Tell her that it seems to be hard for the two of you to talk lately so you wrote her a letter. This way she can read it over and over in privacy and she will always have that. Perhaps she can even write back to you if she feels comfortable with that. Sometimes it is easier to write your feelings down rather than talk face to face. Of course she must know that you would never share anything she says with her mother. (That is the hard part, but you can't! Unless she gives you permission.) Good luck! Hopefully she will just get thru this "teen" phase and get back to normal soon but I'm sure it helps her to know you're there even if she doesn't show it! :-)

Instead of sitting and talking at her for 40 minutes, you should just go out and do something with her. This is your best chance to catch her with her guard down so that she will start to open up to you. Take her window shopping at the mall or go out to lunch. If you are lecturing her like that, she probably sees you as an extension of her own mother, therefore the shutdown.

I don't know if this is her issue, but I can tell you that when I was 14, I was very similar to your niece. I was one of those super achiever kids - straight A's, lots of friends, lots of extracurricular activities, etc. If I screwed up or needed to be disciplined for any reason, I too shut down, and here's why. It was a super blow to my super ego about how super fabulous I thought I was. I NEVER wanted to admit that I had made a mistake, so I would just mentally check out until the tongue lashing was over and then I could go on with my life pretending that it didn't even happen. I didn't want to hear it. It didn't jive with my vision of myself. I was smart enough to know when I had screwed up, but I didn't want everyone else to know too. I wanted to keep my "perfect kid" status with everyone, including myself. For me it basically boiled down to denial.

Like I said, I don't know if this is the same issue your niece is having, but it's a possibility. She's very lucky to have so many people who love her. She will eventually outgrow this, so just do your best to stay connected with her in the meantime.

Best of luck you and your family!

My 17 old daughter is the same exact way, although one thing she hates is confrontations, lectures, when your talking to her your telling her all the wrong things she does, what about the right things,, what I do that helps, is take my daughter away from home, fun stuff, while we are driving I don't act like the mom, I talk to her like I am her equal , she then opens up, I try to put me in her shoes, I let her know she is driving me nuts about something she is doing, I kid a bit when telling her, then tell her she is robbing me on my parenting skills. Again no threatening no yelling no name calling, no pressure.. sometimes what I do is , tell her I need her opinion and help for a friend of mine who has this amazing daughter, I think she is your age I say, well she is smart, people like her, but her mom & dad can't seem to get her to keep the rules, or keep her room clean, got any tips on how they can get her to listen and talk to them about this, she ignores them !!! funny my daughter starts to give the advice, ground her take her tv away yada yada yada, ok ok ok I say thanks then start to walk away, Oh yea I forget, your grounded and no tv thanks for the advice now clean your room or if I do it, I find the trash.. Mom walks away yelling love you !!! :-)

Hi R.!
Your niece is lucky to have you who cares. I didnt read ALL the responses , but maybe she is used to not being listened (Truely listened to) and everything is her fault. That all she knows is to listen to the screaming and then it will go away.
When I was a teenager, my dad raised me not to have much say. It was ... because I am the parent thats why... no discussion.. no reasoning no compromise. So I would ahve that blank stare.. even if I knew I was right..if I knew I was wrong.
maybe keep the talks a brief and ask her the opening question... why did this happen, what would YOU do different, how would YOU change the situation. After time, she will see that you truely care what she has to say and how she feels, not telling her how to feel.
Good Luck..teens go through soooo much !

I think the most important thing you can do for your niece is to spend time with her. Be supportive and loving. Do activities that she enjoys. That will get her to talk to you more. Take her shopping/window shopping/to a movie/out to eat. Treat her like she is special and you value the time with her. Then once you are around each other more, she will open up to you in time. Be supportive to her mom and leave the discipline to her mom. If you spend more 1:1 time with your niece, you will get to know her and she will appreciate it. However, if you have young children of your own it may not be possible. The important thing in all of this is to continue focusing on your own life first and not get sucked into putting your niece's life and happiness above your family's. Best of luck to you.

Wow. You must have been listening in on the conversation I was having with my husband last night. Except we were describing our five year old son. I can't give you any stellar advice, as we are dealing with the same exact issue. But, I want you to know, you are not alone. He gives the exact same dead-eyed stare and the same mumbled "I dunno" responses when you talk to him.

R.,
It sounds like your niece has found a way to not let her mother's yelling affect her and just zones out into her own little world. I admire your willingness to get involved. There could be a lot of things going on, what is she getting in trouble for? Is she disciplined in other ways besides gettting yelled at? Does she have recognition for the good things that she is doing? As her aunt, I would recommend just spending some time with her when she isn't getting into trouble and then she will probably open up to her feelings in general about what is going through her mind and just listen. I have a teenage son and this has really worked well. He used to give the stare and no comment. We have a great relationship now that he can share his feelings with me. Let me know if you have any questions. Good luck and God Bless.

Check out http://www.awareparenting.com/. She's got amazinlgy helpful advice. Good luck!

Hi R.!

I can relate to that! I've been in that situation before. It's between my mom and myself. What helped was my mom somehow changed. Someone had spoken to her. She was not yelling as much. She was focusing on my needs, not hers. I felt that she cared. Of course you can tell that she did her best to contain herself because it was not like her. There was a shift and it worked.

So my suggestion is you speak with your sister. Let her know that her daughter needs her. Suggest that she start speaking without yelling. It will be difficult at first because she's mom but she'll notice the difference in her daughter...in time.

Hope this helps.
M.

P.S.
If you need to contact me, my email is ____@____.com. I would be very honored to be able to assist you. Just like you, I value my family...FAMILY FIRST!

Keep talking to your neice. However, questioning her won't work, just talk. Talk about the news, your life growing up, anything...........keep the lines of communication open. She is hearing you, just not responding. When she is at ease with you, she will start talking to you..........
We all know yelling doesn't work, and accusing a teen doesn't work either. Can you talk to your sister and try to change her behavior, that will also change your neices behavior.
You are in your neices life for a reason...............

Hi, I can empathize with what you and your family are going through. My son is 12 almost 13 and he has similar characteristics. I find myself yelling and screaming at him, which only makes him shut down. It doesn't matter what the punishment is, he doesn't care what the consequence is. I have worked on this issue myself, and I have found that showing him my undivided attention...not being a mom for a minute, but somebody who loves him and just wants to have a good time with him. I know that's easier said than done, since teens don't want to hang with mom. Mom and aunt need to do more listening than lecturing. Even if she is joking and kidding around, there is still truth if you look hard enough.
Tell mom she needs to be patient and loving...If you remember, teen years are very confusing times.

Don't give up. Just continue to let her know you are there for her if she needs you and tell her that you and her parents do what you do because you love her . That is the most important just don't nag or force her to open up. If she is doing great in school and not disrespectful you have won half the battle. I think 13-17 is a hard age with girls but tell your sister not to scream try to only discuss important things when she is calm . I know it is hard but I had to work on that telling my dauughter I am not at her level and we will not do a screaming match that she is to talk to me or if I was over heated I would tell her I need to calm down so please walk away until I have done so . My first is 21 and working on my second 14 and one more to go. My first one turned out great and you only get better as you learn from your mistakes so I am not worried about the next two. Best of luck.

Hi, R.,

Your niece reminds me of a teen-aged student I had many years ago when I was a young math teacher. I realized after teaching junior and senior high school for awhile that the best results came from me privately talking to the student for a brief time (a few minutes) telling him what I expected if I thought that his behavior needed to change and then telling him that he could talk to me privately any time he felt as though he needed or wanted to talk to me.

Some of the readers who have already responded have suggested counseling. If your niece's problems seem severe or enduring, then maybe she should see a child psychologist.

Good luck,
Lynne

It sounds like she's having internal issues....and at 14 my hormones were raging. There's a book that helped me SOOOOO much...and it's written for teenagers.

Teenage Survival Manual: How to Reach 20 in One Piece

Just put it in her room with a post it on it - simply signed Love, Aunt R. since she doesn't like being "confronted." I read it front to back and it changed my life. My parents were amazing, but I felt like they didn't understand me....after this book, I realized that they did.

Try a family therapist or child psychologist. Sometimes kids will talk to therapists and not you. The therapist should be able to figure out the situation and give you some hints on how to deal w/ her. I know a few in Fullerton/La Habra area that take some HMO insurances. Let me know if you want info.

The fact that she is showing a difference in her demeanor from when she's not talking about something serious shows that she is responding to it. But to get her to open up and discuss issues, there needs to be an understanding and a trust. If her mom is yelling and screaming, that will not encourage an environment where she feels safe to talk with adults. If her experience is that she will get yelled at, she will shut down if put in a situation where there might be a conflict. Kids, girls especially, are very sensitive to tone of voice and volume. They will shut off and tune out things that are said in a harsh tone, or that are said with a raised voice.

Your sister needs to stop yelling at her and start talking and listening to her--calmly and respectfully. Kids need to be shown respect in order for them to give it. THat doesn't mean putting them in charge and above you--it just means talking to them like a human and giving them the opportunity to be mature and discuss issues in a mature manner. Until she feels safe with her own mother, she will unfortunately act the same around pretty much every adult. Try talking to your sister and encouraging her to speak to her daughter instead of yell. If she feels herself getting frustrated to the point of yelling, she should take herself out of the room and give herself a time out to calm down.

In the mean time, make yourself open to her, and make sure you talk to your niece frequently in and encouraging tone. Her ability to talk to you may help in her ability to talk to her mom.

Keep talking! Studies show that kids ARE listening even when you think they aren't. But your sister needs to start acting. Consequences for actions. No TV, no video games, earlier bedtimes, whatever it takes. Rewards and praises are in order too!

Hi R.. My husband just heard a commercial for this program that is suppose to change the way kids and teens talk with there parents. We were interested because we have a difficult 4 year old but from breifly looking at the website it looks to be geared to older children. When I read your posting I thought maybe it's something to look at. I have a very good 10 year old and a very difficult 4 year old. So I don't have any advice on the teenage years....YET. But I hope this helps, even just to check it out. Good luck :)

http://www.thetotaltransformation.com/?dsource=googleb&am...

http://www.thesmarttransformation.com/?gclid=CM-Vi5farpYC...

http://transformkidsnow.com/?gclid=CIuA_pDbrpYCFQv7agodhR...

I have an almost 16-year old son who has become quite unresponsive as well. He does okay in school, has intelligent friends and is a wonderful big brother to his little 22-month old sister. I'm wondering why your niece needs to be disciplined when she is doing well in school. The only thing that my husband and I need to keep after our son is cleaning up his room. Otherwise, he is quite talkative with his friends, is into all the video games, computer, music, etc. that typical teenagers are. He has not gotten any real trouble.

So R., I thought for a moment you were MY SIL and you were talking about my teen! LOL!! Thank God I'm not aloooone!!!
My 15 year old daughter does the EXACT SAME THING!!! She too is very, very intelligent. She exceeds with minimum input. However, she refuses to put out that "minimum input" most of the time. She rides on her older sister at home, and almost always just glides right over what we say in regards to homework and chores....she doesn't carry her load at home to help with her younger siblings. Whenever they're in her care it's like they're savage children that can run free.
She is failing two of her classes, both of which she is very good at. She refuses to do her work and doesn't complete tests or quizzes. Now she started "ditching" one of those classes.
You talk to her and she "stares blankly into space" and you ask her anything and she only replies: "I dunno"...

What the heck!?

It might be time for some family therapy with a GOOD therapist.

I'm a little confused..is she shut down all the time or just when she's getting lectured or yelled at?
If your sister is trying to have a conversation with her while her daughter's upset she is screaming into deaf ears..as you are witnessing. The time for talking is not when people are upset. Also, not too sure what you mean when you say, "the desired result" ..is your sister looking for genuine remorse, guilt, an "I'm so sorry"..what exactly is she looking for? These things, she won't get during emotional upheaval..especially if she's yelling.

I assuming that consequences for certain actions or behaviors occur. I'm reading that your niece isn't fighting the consequence, she's simply not giving her Mom the satisfaction of the "right" response. If she's as smart as you say, well actually all teenagers seems to know how to get to their parents, she knows that her lack of affect..no crying, complaining, no rolling eyes etc. gets to her mom. I have a very strong suspicion that she knows it's driving her mom crazy..teenagers love to push buttons and what is more fun than watching Mom become unglued while you do nothing? Pretty interesting power struggle..

When disciplin is called for the consequence should be given, mom walks away..no discussion except...we'll talk about this later- or even say we'll talk about this when I'm calm.. at the very least if Mom needs to get into it she should keep it SHORT ...VERY SHORT. If there is no affect...let it go!! Don't even mention or acknowledge it..

As mentioned in some of the other responses the best times to talk things out is when they both are calm (and believe it or not, when they are in a situstion where they don't have to make eye contact). The car is a great spot for conversations and opening up...while they are folding laundry together,perhaps even Mom going in before she falls asleep so they are in a dark room.. any non-threatening, easy environment. But it needs to be a conversation, not a lecture. Teens are amazing at detecting when mom is about to detour from a really nice conversation into a lecture. Point is, perhaps it would help if your sister started opening lines of communication gently, no pressure. If you want to communicate better with you niece I'd try the same thing. But if she doesn't want to talk , let it go, pressuring her will just make her withdraw.

If the lack of affect is apparent all the time, then, a good family therapist, can do wonders..good luck

I have teenagers that are 14 and 16. Their biggest complaint is that they think we don't understand, trust them, or listen to them. When they "shut-down" like your niece does, that's when I know I have to back off and reverse my method, tone of voice, or stop the lecture. To get them to open up they need to feel like they are being listened to and their feelings validated. The biggest lesson my husband has taught me was that though I may not agree with how he feels, they are still his feelings. I can't make him not feel that way or make him feel wrong about them. I need to listen and validate his feelings. I've used that with my children. There will be times when they open up to me as I make a non threatening environment for them. I may tell them, please share your thoughts, and I promise I will not judge or lecture you about them. Still other times they aren't ready to open up and I may share my understanding thoughts with them by sharing a personal experience I've had. Most importantly, I never make them feel that their issues aren't important. Good luck and make sure you laugh ALOT with her. That makes a HUGE difference. :O)

Hi R., you're a fantastic aunt/person. I've got 2 teenagers and I know about some of these issues. There's an incredible book I must recommend to really help you and her mother, it's called "Yes Your Teen is Crazy" by Michael Bradley. He's counseled really problem-teens and gives vital advice for all of us. I guarantee it will help! When I read what you wrote, I have to wonder, do you think there could be drugs involved? I can see her acting that way with her mother, but with you? But the grades are top-notch, so probably not. I would have to recommend a good family counselor just to put the two of them (Mother and daughter) on the right ground and give them just a couple real things they can both do. That mom should never be yelling & screaming - that will just tear the 2 of them apart and create a rebell that will only get worse. They need to do something now. As for your part - I think you're doing exactly the right thing - just lettting her know you care so much and being there for her. The only thing I would say is, don't spend quite that much time with her if she's not responding. You know when you see a scared little kitty that won't let you pet her unless SHE comes to you? Well that's the key - let her know you're there, but let her come to you. Just drop her frequent reassuring hugs or smiles and tell her very simply "call me whenever you want to", and just walk away. She'll come to you when she's ready.
Best of luck,
M.