What's up with Daughters and Moms?

I remember with my son, when he started the passive aggressive disrespectful stuff (slamming doors, stomping, etc) - that I would make him "practice". He had to open and shut his door 10 times the correct way, or walk from the living room to his bedroom 10 times correctly, etc. Oh man he hated that, but it taught him to use his words to tell me what was bothering him. He found that if he would concentrate on his words instead of the other stuff that the anger would disappear.

Estrogen butts heads sometimes just as badly as testosterone does sometimes.
Not yelling is good.
Don't fear the crying.
Recognize crocodile tears when you see them.
Switch your thinking about things like privileges/desserts/tv/etc.
You don't take things away when she's bad - she has to constantly earn them with good behavior.
So instead of dessert being a given, it only becomes a sometimes thing.
She doesn't get 2 hrs tv automatically - she has to make it though the day without arguing with you and then she's earned it.
If she argues with you 7 days a week, then she goes a whole week without tv.
Do not engage her in long drawn out arguments.
Establish your warning system (3 warnings and you're done) and the consequences for ignoring/laughing at you and then stick with it - no exceptions.
If she wants a long drawn out battle she can go to her room (and if she slams her door, then take her door away for a week).
Let her know in no uncertain terms that if she works with you life can be very sweet and pleasant - if she works against you life will NOT be sweet or pleasant at all.
If she wants to be stubborn, then she's only shooting herself in the foot - she'll be getting in the way of her own fun.
You are not doing this to her - she is doing it to herself.
Also - who ever else she behaves for - should be backing you up.
If they see her disrespecting you, they should show their disapproval of her behavior toward you.
She's shown she CAN be cooperative (so it's not impossible for her to achieve it) - she just needs to keep her halo polished around you as well as everyone else instead of letting only you see her horns.
Get this fixed now when she's 5 yrs old, and 13 yrs old will be much easier than it otherwise would be.

Only want to say, you have good advice here.

Give yourself time to do each one. Try to build in tantrum/consequence time when you see the potential for conflict. Nothing is more important that you have to do this summer than this. Be prepared to call people and say, we can't do this today because we are working on something.

Clear your mind each morning of guilt or anger or too much emotion. I do my prayer journal every morning. It gives me power to do what I have to do.

This is just a job you have to do. Getting your daughter to treat those she loves the most (you) respectfully. You get your game face on (blasé) or bored. And you apply the consequences and note the results. Clinically.
You don't give up till you get the job done.

Just a bit of a suggestion, go big. Dont do the least consequence and build up. If you want respect of your rules, start big, any first yr teacher would tell you that.
Good luck!

She does this with you b/c she can. She doesn't with the others either b/c she knows she won't get her way or she knows her time is limited with them so she complies.

It sounds like you're giving her too much attention when she throws a tantrum and she's learned if she pushes enough she'll get her way. Change your response to her. If she knows that throwing a tantrum won't get her anywhere, it will stop. She's testing the boundaries. I used to give my kids (still works sometimes and they're teens) options within my confines. Example: she has to wear shorts on gymnastics day so put out three shorts options and let her choose. She still feels like she's making the choice. Or let her know that to participate she has to wear shorts. No shorts and she can sit in her room instead of going to gymnastics or whatever, but you get the idea.

This is NOT a daughters and moms issue, whatever that is.

She should not be stomping, slamming doors, threatening you, etc. She can sulk, however.

If she does any of those things (other than sulk) immediately send her to her room, or give her a consequence that means something to her. You need to nip this bratty behavior in the B..

This is NOT a mother and daughter issue, this is a bratty child issue. Yes, you are right, this boils down to her being spoiled. Stop spoiling her now, she already sounds highly unlikable for a 5 year old. My 5 year old kids never acted like that, including my daughter.

Don't argue with her, send her to her room. Don't use reason on a 5 year old -- they are developmentally incapable of it. Modify her behavior with consequences. Don't yell. And don't worry about her "fearing" you -- unless you beat her, she won't "fear" being sent to her room -- she will only respect it, eventually.

You will get plenty of good advice from the others on how to stop this -- listen to it. You can change your daughter's bratty behavior in two weeks -- but you have to be consistent, and stop worrying about her fearing you. Your indulgence of her nasty behavior is bad for her.

Not sure where you are getting this is a daughter issue. It sounds like a parenting issue.

Without getting into all the details, what is different about how everyone else handles her? There must be something, first look there. Could it be the time spent with her. Like if being with dad or grandparents are limited she may want to be compliant to spend more time with them. She has all the time in the world with you...

Which brings me to the last bit, my kids can be just awful with me because I am there for them always and that makes them feel safe to be sub humans from time to time. As they got older it actually got easier because they learned how to examine their feelings. In the interim, just say I love you too. Confuses the heck out of them and they just stop their strangeness.

It used to upset me that my SD only seemed to argue with me! She didn't argue (much) with her dad and as far as I could tell her mom used to let her do whatever she wanted. But NO WAY was she going to be allowed to do the same stuff over at our house! She was NOT going to watch rated R movies at age 7, or go without her seatbelt, or drink a can of pop with dinner. Her father backed up those rules, but I was the one that was with her all day so I had to be the enforcer.

So we'd butt heads.

Then one day, when she was about 8 years old she came up to me one day and said "I think you love me more than mommy. You give me rules so that I can be a good person and make smart choices." I almost cried, and also had to reassure her that her mother loved her a lot, and that making rules doesn't mean a person loves you more or less.

So your daughter knows you love her, and she feels comfortable enough to be herself around you. My SD must feel VERY comfortable around me LOL!

It gets better if your maintain your rules but also give lots of natural consequences. My SD used to not ever want to wear a jacket, so I'd let her know it's cold out and if she still refused I would let her be cold. If she didn't wear what she needed to, for an activity, then she didn't participate. I'd often bring what she needed to wear and then she'd sit on the side until she decided to change.

Crying doesn't work on me. Tantrums don't work.

Just be consistent. I think consistency, no matter what you decide, is the key.

Good luck!

Hey L.,

A couple things: first, this is common stuff, the "I'll do it for others, but not for you" thing. I saw this a lot as a nanny, and at first was a bit judgmental about it. ("Obviously that mom doesn't have control of that kid") ... and then I realized it's really about mom being the *most secure person to express those unpleasant emotions with* as opposed to any big flaws in discipline style.

Oh, and guess what? Boys do it with their moms, too. I had much better cooperation from the children I was a nanny or preschool teacher for than I have ever had with my own son.

One thing I would highly recommend is to look at HOW you are communicating with your daughter. Have you read Faber and Mazlish's most helpful book "How to Talk So Kids Will Listen... And How to Listen So Kids Will Talk"? This book was a game-changer for me, in both my personal and professional relationships. The other book (if you want one) that I found to be spot-on is JoAnne Nordling's "Taking Charge" (Nordling is one of the founders of our local "Family Support Center" and we used her book with parents in helping them through discipline issues at home. I found it to be very thoughtful and well-balanced.)

In keeping with Nordling's philosophy, I would work on trying to keep your daughter's problems with dressing/following directions as hers to deal with, not yours. You shouldn't have to wait an hour for her to be doing as she's told. Were it my son balking at getting dressed, I'd likely walk him to a chair in an out of the way place and just calmly tell him "I see you are not ready to get dressed. You may sit here until you are ready to follow my directions." and walk away. I don't engage at that point. No reasoning, comforting, pleading, etc. Just go do my own thing and if he pops back up or argues, just quietly walk him back to the chair. "Stay here until you are ready..."

Another thing I would do is to stop shielding her from the negative natural consequences of her choices. She won't wear what she is supposed to? First, get her on board with you by showing her that "It says "wear shorts" right here on the calendar/in the newsletter. Which shorts do you want to wear?" "NONE!!!!" Okay, so she is putting up a fuss. Make it HER problem if she doesn't comply. "If you choose to wear a dress, be aware that you will have to change at school because I'm packing the appropriate clothes and your teacher will ask you to change." Then, do JUST that. Let her wear what she chooses to school and just tell the teacher "Suzy knows what she was supposed to wear today for the water activity, however, she made some inappropriate choices. Her shorts and tee shirt are in her backpack and she'll need to go change when you ask her to. Feel free to sit her out if she won't cooperate." Let your daughter experience what happens when she is the recipient of unwanted attention for NOT complying with the rules. Kindergarteners are AWESOME at this sort of peer correction, trust me.

You might consider some unexpected 'in the moment' rewards for the behavior you do want to see. For example, she doesn't argue and cleans up her room quickly. "Sweetie! You did such a great job following my directions right away that we have enough time for a quick game/story". Do not offer the reward with the direction you give (no "If you get this done quickly we can..." ), just make it something unexpected and fun. "We've had such a pleasant morning, I just enjoy spending time with you like this." positive feedback whenever appropriate. Likewise, with arguing, I wouldn't go there too, too much. Pick an two word answer and stick with it. "Shoes, please." or "shorts, now". (this technique is called The Broken Record and is from "Taking Charge"... it's about stating the one obvious thing and REFUSING to argue with them or engage. My son will tell you that I can Broken Record him into just doing it... and he was tough. When he was 4 he could hold out on the Broken Record for about 5 minutes, but I could do it longer.)

Lastly, and I have to stress this, kids *know* how to press our buttons. Staying emotionally neutral and calm during all of this is really helpful. Try to ask yourself in the moment: "Is the fallout from not following directions going to be my problem or her problem to deal with?" Dressed inappropriately for school? As suggested above, make it HER problem. Not eating breakfast within the amount of time necessary for school? HER problem..albeit uncomfortable, this is a learning experience. Don't forget that. Stay calm, don't get into it with her, let natural consequences be a teacher-- and that can only happen if we don't talk too much about it or rub it in their faces. Make sure the consequences fit the misbehavior/lack of cooperation, and that you don't make things 'personal'. I think that's the biggest mistake parents can make. It's one thing to feel bad because 'wow, I messed up and didn't listen to mom and now I'm stuck in an unpleasant situation' and completely another to feel bad because "mom makes me feel like a bad person".

She will respect you when she is allowed to see the logic behind your requests and what you are trying to help her with. This may mean letting her fall on her face, so to speak, a few times so that she understands that your directions/requests are really for her own benefit. Let her do it her own way sometimes and have her deal with the consequences --pick and choose this, of course. We don't tolerate non-compliance when it comes to safety concerns or someone else's property, obviously.

You will have a lot of years ahead of you. If you can remain approachable, willing to let her make some mistakes, and still have loving moments together, I think you can go forward pretty well. Follow through with discipline, even if it means taking her hand and physically removing her from your space to her room when she's arguing, or take her to a chair and walk away. Hard to put on a big show without an audience.

Sorry this was so long, but I hope you find something in this which works for you. And I loved everything B had to say!

I think the problem is you're expecting her to always respond positively to punishment/consequences.
For example, you put her in her room and she just starts crying, or getting more upset? So what. She SHOULD be upset. Close her door and ignore her. Calmly tell her she can come out when she calms down. Don't try to talk or reason with her when she's like that.
Do not engage her, do not argue with her.
Let her suffer the consequences of her behavior.
Later on, when you both are calmer and feeling better, THAT is the time to talk about boundaries, rules and respect.
And make sure you give her lots of praise when she's cooperative and helpful.
Good luck, you will be dealing with this dynamic for years, it's an ongoing process :-(

She is 5 1/2 and this is typical for a child her age. She is testing testing testing! If you continue to allow this by avoiding situations that cause it, she wins. Come up with a solution before it happens again, discuss it with her father and then stick to it every single time. To encourage you a bit, I read an article a few years back that stated that a child who is defiant with the primary caretaker shows that the child knows they are loved unconditionally...so she knows you love her but the two of you are butting heads and you need to stop it!

I don't think that sending her to her room for 5 minutes is a good form of discipline. She needs punishments that hurt (and I don't mean physical.) For example, when my daughter was her age she was the same as your daughter and I would immediately take away TV for a day. If the behavior continued I would do two days, if she still didn't shape up I would go for a whole week. Boy was it hard, especially since her younger siblings were allowed to watch but it worked and she hated it. Now that she is a bit older I go straight for electronics. No Kindle, DS, TV plus writing sentences. Now with my son, we have to do things differently because he's not an electronics kid. He will have other privileges taken away, like playing outside with neighbors or his bike taken away for a few days. My youngest daughter is still different then her two older siblings and a stern talk usually is enough to do the trick with her. So like I said, choose you line of defense and stick to it. Make it effective! My kids can be pretty testy sometimes and they know I mean business! They are very well behaved most of the time but when they get out of hand and I notice a pattern of disrespect forming I get right on it and fix it before it gets any worse.

I know it's hard, but you can do this. Start thinking critically about what strategy will work for your daughter and go for it. You can even Google ideas for discipline for a child her age, people are very creative and love to share their ideas. Good luck and hang in there!

I always remember a line from "Honey I Blew Up The Baby". He wants her to blow him up so he can handle the baby. She tells him "NO, all kids know daddies mean play and mommies mean business".

You are her uber total authority figure. You are THE boss in all situations. Her final person that can make her do what you want.

So you are the main person she will always rebel against.

Look at how you and DH react to her. My DH will sometimes be more impatient with DD and I simply say "Your choices are x and y. Pick one." If DD gets upset, then she knows she can go to her room til she's calm.

You may also find it beneficial to read a book like 123 Magic or How to Talk So Kids Will Listen.

Many times the struggle with my almost-5 is that she wants to do it her way or wants independence. Sometimes I can let her and sometimes not. Think about your biggest fights. What are they about? What time of day? Is your DD not a morning person and you pepper her with choices and questions right out of the box? Are you the one stuck doing the morning routine so you get the bulk of her conflicts? Would it help to have her and her father choose clothing the night before?

I would also refuse to let it go on for an hour. If she slams a door, she can be pulled out of her room for a time out in the kitchen. Or if she is always slamming doors, she can lose her door. I tell my DD that her behavior is absolutely unacceptable and x or y will happen if she doesn't shape up. She is in school now and has a color chart. Yesterday I told her she was Red. If she wanted to go to the pool for raft night, she had to work back up to at least yellow. She understood that. Maybe something like that would work for your DD. And get DH on board, too. I would not threaten. I would lay out x leads to y. Her choice to do x and get y. So "If you do not want to eat your dinner, then you may be excused, but no snacks and no dessert." or "If you do not get dressed by 7:30 then you will go to school in exactly what you are wearing, even if it's your pajamas."

And sometimes, I just tell DD that she can go to her room, but I do not want to hear it. So she'll go in her room and I'll hear "Mean mommy turned off the TV..." blah blah blah and I kind of chuckle to myself b/c that was so me when I was a kid. So I tell DH to ignore it and just wait for her to get over it, if there's time to let it ride.

I am working on my DD on things like "window of opportunity" and "time and place" and "use your words". Yelling and crying can be what you get when a kid can't tell you what is wrong. I tell DD that I get that she's upset but I don't know why and if she doesn't use words, then I can't work with her.

It's her job to separate from you, and sometimes (maybe many times) that means actively pushing you away. It's healthy, normal... and still tough to take. Keep strong in your messages and kind in your actions and words. Model the behaviors that you expect and one day, hopefully sooner than you think, you will see that she was paying attention.