My original question is here http://www.mamapedia.com/questions/12250327482674380801
So I found this: http://www2.ed.gov/policy/gen/guid/religionandschools/pra..., which is the federal DOE guidance on prayer and religion in public schools. After reading it and deciding that YES, what was happening in my child's class was against the law, I made an appt to talk with her teacher. I basically asked the teacher to explain how and why the class said a blessing and then told her that I was concerned it was against the law. She was surprised I had any issues b/c "your child talks about going to church". I said that what I believe or am teaching my child at home concerning religion, faith, or god had no impact on the issue at hand, i.e. an organized, class wide prayer is illegal in public schools. She said she would talk to her team teacher and the principal and get back to me. She was an assistant last year and said last year's class said a blessing before lunch as well and that "no parents complained". She said I was the first one this year to say anything, so she assumed it was okay. I explained that my child didn't mention it until 5 weeks into school, so there may be other families who would have a problem with it, they just don't know it's happening. (Not that it matters if everyone involved thinks it is okay, it's still against the law) I was really stressed about talking to the teacher about this and it all went really smoothly, I didn't want to be confrontational or "raise hell", just point out the facts and assume that the school would follow the rules. :)
I got an email from the principal the next day and we set up a time to talk. I approached it as "This is me, as a parent, asking questions about an activity in my child's class, I am concerned that the activity breaks the law, what do you, as a principal, think"... The principal rambled a lot and talked a lot about a "grey area" when it comes to prayer in schools and what is legal or not...which is completely false, the Supreme Court has been very consistent in its rulings. The principal did say, "If I had an atheist parent complain, then yes, I would have to ask the teacher to stop what she is doing." I had to say, " I would like it to stop because it's against the law." Basically I walked away from the meeting realizing that in SC and this community and school that the law concerning religion in public schools is consistently and intentionally ignored and most of the time no one says anything about it. Bleh.
So a couple of days later I asked my child "who said the blessing today?" She said the teacher stold the classthey weren't going to say the blessing anymore, they would have a moment of silence, and each child could choose to pray to themselves or choose not to pray.
Congratulations! By breaking the law, they are teaching the children to break the law and think nothing of it. Then when a family moves into the school district and has a problem with this activity because they do not hold the same belief, then that will make them look like they are causing a problem and people will blame them when it is actually the school causing a problem.
Hooray for you! Thank you!! : )
Good for you :) You approached this in the correct manner, had all the facts you needed and got a positive result from it. Conflict resolution at it's best :)
Ya done good Mama :)
Good for you!
So now we all have to be non-believers to object to prayer in school? Sorry, no. I have faith and my children attend church. I want to be the one responsible for their religious education, and if I wanted others teaching my kids about religion, I would send my kids to a religious school. Instead, I am teaching my children to pray and worship without infringing on those around them who may or may not have very different beliefs. Teacher-lead prayer has no place in public school, and that distinction is, I think, one of the beautiful things about this country.
I can't believe the principal called it a "gray area!" Not that I'm doubting you, I just can't believe he's such an idiot.
I'm a very devout Catholic, and a public high school teacher. We have a moment of silence every day, and I enforce the silence. Many students (and I) do take that time to pray, but we must respect the beliefs of those who do not choose to pray.
"Gray area" . . . wow.
I applaud you! I think it's ridiculous for someone to suggest that you shouldn't object because you go to church! You are standing up for the law and for every other person who doesn't feel strong enough to stand up! The principal is nuts - there is no gray area. Document you conversation in a letter and send it to the superintendent of schools. And send a copy to the state department of education and to the ACLU.
I'm proud of you! And anyone who says "Oh, but you're religious - leave it to some atheist to complain" is in complete defiance of the law. Don't listen to them!
Good for you! You handled it really, really well. I'm so glad that you followed through with this.
I commend you for doing this!! It was not easy I can bet. Doing the whole silence I think is wonderful. The children who choose not to say a blessing can have a mindful moment before class which is fantastic! I am a Buddhist and would have had a problem with the blessing as well. Freedom of religion, means just that. Not lets pray cause the teacher says so. It is up to the parents to instill that value I believe. Great work!
I applaud you.
Is the South that bsckwards?
Geez, I'd hope not.
On the most basic level, asking a blessing is disrespectful.
And the "your child talks about going to church" reminds me if the "nothing against the people of color/we're all white here" convo starter followed by some derogatory racial comment.
Who knows what children they are offending because those kids DON'T talk about going to synagogue?
There is NO way that in 2012, every teacher, aide,admin staff, etc. in that school does NOT know they were breaking the law by praying. Their responses prove that.
Who knows how long that would have continued had you NOT spoken up?!
I'm glad you spoke up!
Good on ya! Even if all the children are Christians it is still illegal and just plain wrong to have an organized prayer time in a public school.
Good for you :-))
I would contact the ACLU, Americian Civil Liberties Union, anyway. Google them and find an office or representitive in your state. Send a letter or email alerting them to what is happening, concerning prayer, in your schools. It may be happening in other classrooms and other schools and other parents may not have the courage to speak up. The ACLU may send a letter to the schools reminding them they are not allowed to interfer with Freedom of Religion.
YOU ARE WONDERFUL! Pat yourself on the back girlfriend. That was hard to confront. You stepped up to the plate. I sing you praises.
Good job! And THANK YOU! As an atheist I thank you for standing up for a law that is meant to protect our right to teach our children matters of faith (or lack there of) in private.
Good for you! If I found out something similar was happening in my kids' public schools, I would talk to the principal about it and possibly the superintendent.
Good for you. I would still contact the local ACLU chapter so they will be aware and potentially keep an eye on it. Absurd that anyone in the school system could in anyway believe school sponsored prayer is in any possible way ok.
Right on mom!!! Good for you and your kids. Seriously, it took a lot to go in and talk about this. It has nothing to do about religion, it's about the law. Separation of church and state (ok so I know those words are not written but it is the spirit of the law) one shouldn't have anything to do with the other. My parents left their church when they played a political video instead of the homily and never went back (during bush2's reelection). Awesome! You are awesome!
Lola n. it's important because its the law.
Good for you for standing up for what you believe is right.
The law allows for freedom OF religion not necessarily freedom FROM religion. I personally believe that this country as a whole needs to get back to believing in something rather than believing in everything or nothing at all.
why was it important to you to go through all this. if prayer doesn't go against your beliefs, you should have let this one slide until someone who does take offense to it to bring it up.
it's a prayer. not a cult.
to clarify, i would never want someone to feel 'ousted' or 'not belonging' in a situation like that, but sounds like you and your family is not, so why did you take up this issue?
I understand what you are saying and I agree with you about religion in public schools, and I am a christian and pray before meals and go to church. BUT the only thing that kind of jumped out at me in your post is that your big issue is that they are "breaking the law". You seem to be making a big deal out of that. Do you never break the law your self? Almost everyone does daily by driving over the speed limit, talking on the phone while driving (although we are allowed in my state), or just other random stuff. Anyway, I was just curious about that since you kept mentioning that they are breaking the law.
Honestly, I would not be against it if my kids class (they are in public school) said a prayer before lunch, but I do understand where you are coming from and I agree with you on that it shouldn't be done in a public school. Good job standing up for it!
JA, you did what you felt it was necessary to do. The principal gave you a bunch of mumbo jumbo - he KNOWS that there is no grey area. He was just hoping you wouldn't say flat out that you wanted the teacher to stop. You stood up for what you believe in and for the law as it is written and he doesn't want you to go to the superintendent. That is why the teacher is no longer doing it.
You know, it's not just about atheists. It's about children who are Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhists, etc.
I'm all for prayer in school. I really am. But in a parochial school or religious school that parents choose to send their kids to, partly in order to benefit from this. I loved when my kids got elementary school "Sunday School" every other day when they went to a private school overseas. For the kids who weren't Christian, their "Sunday School" was a study of world religions. And the Catholic kids got CDC classes. It was great.
But public school isn't the place for this. The separation of Church and State was instituted because of the reason our ancestors came here - because they were persecuted for their religion. They came so that they would no longer be persecuted. Schools paid for by the government are not supposed to push one religion. That's the whole point.
When I was in high school, I remember that we had morning meditations. Students would go in and read verses from the Bible or passages that were about biblical principles. Then one day a student read something from the Koran. That didn't sit well with the higher ups. I didn't find out what she said to them, but there were no longer ANY religious references during morning meditations. At the time, I wondered why they couldn't just have any religion's book accepted. Now I know that they realized that they had to go by the law. In this case, a student forced the discussion instead of a parent. But this was high school - not elementary.
In my earlier post on your other thread, I said that if every parent in the classroom was okay with it, it wouldn't bother me. I know that it's still not what the law says. And even if you are the only parent that it bothered, that's one parent too many.
Dawn
I only have one question--if helping an old lady across the street was suddenly against the law, or donating to the soup kitchen, etc, does that mean you wouldn't do it anymore? If you truly are a christian, you MUST believe that God should infiltrate every aspect of life; you can't just pick and choose. If a child does not want to say the blessing, he/she even at that age can make that decision for himself. Shame on you for ruining a good thing! Does it not say in the Bible, "Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not; for such is the kingdom of heaven."
