I'm at My Wits End with My 11 Yr Old Daughter

My daughter is 13 now but we have been going through the same stuff for years and if you do not get proper help it will get worse. It sounds like she may have oppisitional defiant disorder along with anxiety. Take her to a therapist who will see her weekly. We have been working with w therapist and psychiatrist for a couple months and it really is helping. Good luck and hugs to you.

This is beyond parenting and discipline. Your daughter is suffering with a very real and common mental disorder. Anxiety by nature is not "rational" so trying to get her to see how silly her fears are isn't going to work. She herself has admitted that she knows her thinking is not rational, but she can't help it.
My youngest has anxiety, and it peaked right around the time she started middle school, she was twelve.
Lots of similarities to what you're describing above, fears and worries, especially around getting sick, LOTS of stomach aches, calls home from the office, missed school days and overall it was a very long and stressful year for all of us.
Therapy DID help my daughter, tremendously, but it took time. She went once a week for several months, gradually down to every other week until she was fully healthy and able to cope.
I know how hard it is, and you're right, it puts a lot of stress and pressure on the whole family and the marriage. Get her the help she needs and hang in there. With the right therapist you will all come out of this just fine and your daughter will gain the tools she needs to manage something she will likely be dealing with her whole life.

You need to take her to see a psychiatrist and she needs to have a psychiatric evaluation.
It really sounds like she's having an early onset of mental illness (I have no idea which one(s) - there are many).

http://www.nami.org/Template.cfm?Section=By_Illness

http://www.nami.org/Template.cfm?Section=Helpline1&te...

Additional:

That she is getting more physical with you and her siblings is precisely why you need to step up now with a serious psychiatrist.
You need to protect your kids - mental illness is not fair to siblings/parents/families/marriages.
She's going to get even older and stronger maybe to the point where you fear her.
If she were diabetic and needed insulin would you wait to see if therapy had an effect?
With mental illness there is a biochemical imbalance somewhere and although it might take some time to find the right med (and re find it - they can change) it's worth it if it can help her function.
Gather info, document behavior (video it if you can so you can show the doctor), get her evaluated.
If a mental illness is diagnosed - it will be a shock to you even if you suspected something - many a parent goes through denial and even stages of grief - but helping her and protecting your other kids is more important.
Start talking to some support groups.
You need some tools to help you and your family cope.

Very, very briefly, anxiety is a medical (psychiatric) disorder. You can't logic someone out of it, any more than you can tell someone that now is really not a convenient time to be having a heart attack.

Ask your pediatrician for a referral to a psychiatrist, and get her started on a low dose of meds. So what if what your daughter has going on is "all in her head"? Her head is an important part of her!

All that said, I actually think this generation of kids is overmedicated. I DO think you should be cautious, and start with a low dosage, but it seems only fair to your daughter to recognize that these symptoms are very likely beyond her control.

No, you can't force her to talk, but it's not your job to do that. It's the psychologist's job to help her with this, you are not trained to do so.

Let me tell you what it's like to have anxiety to this degree. The fear you feel, sometimes with no object, is crippling. Your body is reacting in such a way that you can't control it, like sweating or your stomach hurting or a pounding headache. The physical cause for your symptoms is invisible, to the outside world you are reacting to something that is not there in such a way as to bring attention to yourself. Unfortunately for you, you don't want that attention, you want to crawl under a rock. And yet, you need someone to tell you it's going to be ok, that they are there for you and want to help. And all of that is happening all at the same time.

Keep her spirits up. Remind her that you are doing everything you can to help her. Distract her with busywork when she is feeling anxious, especially if you can catch it at the beginning. Have her help you more and spend more time with you, she needs a physical close bond right now. Do not tolerate her misbehavior, but try not to yell or over react to it. If separating her is the only thing that works, do that. Encourage her to write about what is going on, and don't read it if she doesn't want you to. She does need to be a part of her own recovery, and it's your job to help her find those tools.

Good luck.

eta...
As far as disciplining her, two things work well for me, and my kids all fight like that to some degree or another. It gets better as they get older, they have better impulse control and that only comes with maturity. Anyway, I either separate the offending pair however I see fair, or I make them sit down facing each other and facilitate a conversation about what happened and make them say like 10 things they like about each other. The key is to keep calm and don't over react yourself :) (I know how hard that part can be.)

edit #2
And everything B says. She needs to see someone at LEAST weekly, and she needs some relief from this in the form of meds if necessary. It could be the beginning of something worse or it could be a temporary situation, but she needs more help than what she is getting. That said, you're doing great so far.

yes. it is bad behavior.. but it is bad behavior coming from a mentalhealth problem.. she has very high anxiety.. she is not faking she is sick.. she really thinks she is.. her head is spinning the panic attack is real. her thoughts are racing.. and she might need meds to get this under control. but yelling at her and taking away things is not helping her it is making it worse.. if this therapist is too busy find another.. and then find a psychiatrist too. if the anxiety is so bad that it is keeping her out of school this is serious. and she needs help.

I'm so sorry you're going through this.

With as much kindness as I can muster, I want to say that I hope that you will change your mind about the medication. I doubt that you're going to get anywhere with talk therapy without putting her on medication first. The talk therapy is just a little bandaid on a BIG problem that has existed for a LONG time.

Unplug the TV and cable. Disable the computer. Hide every iPad or iPod or other electronic device. Sit with her all day long, if you have to, to make her do her homework. If she is miserable with you, she might want to go to school.

I want to add that you need to stop allowing her ANY TV if she's hitting her brother when he walks in. Instead of giving her TV just "because", she should earn it. For your son's sake, you simply must prevent this.

I feel for you. I really do.

First off, take the TV out of her room and that alone will remove some of the battles that you mention in your SWH.

When she physically hurts another child, remove her from the presence of the other child. Obviously no one should be unsafe at home.

At this point, she's long overdue for some serious mental health help so it's good that you've started seeing someone. I would raise this to near-emergency status with the doctor you met with and if she or he can't see you child more often, then find someone else. Don't worry that she doesn't talk to the counselor just yet. It takes a while for them to break through the tough exterior but kids can still learn by listening.

I would be concerned that something is happening at school that you are totally unaware of. My guess is that there is a bullying or harassment or isolation situation going on that she's not telling you about. Talk to the school counselor or assistant principal, talk to her friends' parents and see if they're seeing or hearing anything.

Consistency is key. She is most likely truly testing you and the authority around her...and unfortunately...she is winning right now. I would not jump too quick to medication (many people do if they don't get an immediate answer). I would try to see if you can have therapy sessions once a week for her (3 weeks was probably enough time to let everything be forgotten and for her to really start testing her limits again). If it can become part of her weekly routine for a while, you may find that she actually likes it. It may become an outlet for her to discuss what is going on. At 11, I am sure the hormones that are racing through her little body are probably not helping the outbursts. Kids need to have boundaries. Maybe sit down with your husband and come up with a plan together and try to be as consistent and on the same page as possible. (I know that can be hard some times...my husband is gone a lot...and if I am trying to put one type of discipline into practice...many times he comes home and ruins the progress I think I have made.) I know it is not an "answer", but I hope that it helps in aiding you to find an "answer'.

I would go back to the mental and behavioral health department and say that 3 weeks is too long, is there someone your child can meet with sooner? I would also get the school counselor involved. There may be a middle ground between the nurse and principal if she can go to the counselor, work on calming down, and then return to class. I would discuss with her doctor/therapist these recent events and ask if she might also be depressed. You can't let her miss 3 weeks of school, so what now?

I would also investigate if it's not just the work, but something else. Is she being harassed on the bus? At school? Has she lost a friend? Middle school is a hugely mercurial time for children, especially girls. Who likes who and hangs with who can vary on the minute. I had a very hard 6th grade year.

You might try How To Talk So Kids Will Listen. I would not overlook her behavior but I would bear them in mind when talking to her. Something you might try is to be short and calm. "I hear that you are upset. When you are calm, we can talk about it." And then not talk to her til she's calm. My DH talks too much. Sometimes what works best for my DD is to make a statement and stick to it. "No, you may not watch TV." Someone else suggested "asked and answered". In other words, once you've answered the same question once, it's done. Final. The end.

My DD used to say "oh, my tummy hurts" when she got into trouble or didn't like something. That stopped...but only after she said it, was truly sick and we didn't believe her, and she puked in the store. Lesson learned.

Anxiety is real and needs to be treated. But if this is ALSO an attention-getting behavior, you have to consider if it's the best thing to rush to the school or make her sit in the nurse's office/go to class. You might try going, but not in 5 minutes. Be on your way in 30.

And I totally "get" screaming in frustration yourselves. But IMO all it does is make the house very loud. No one listens. So try something else. If she refuses to get up and tries to stay out of school, then discuss with DH things you can do, like take her in her pjs, fine her (does she get an allowance?), etc. Maybe instead of staying her her room she has chores? Be on the same page with a plan with DH. Recognize that you may not be able to "punish" her out of this behavior, and that discipline is different than punishment. Also recognize that you can't just logic her way out of anxiety. It makes sense...but then her head tells her something else. You need to ask the therapist or counselor "how can we address her when she's anxious?"

If she is hitting her brother for doing nothing, or just hitting him in general, what is your family consequence? Send her to her room? I would definitely intervene if she's taking it out on him physically. If she calls you a jerk, then you can ignore it or say, "Sorry you fell that way. The TV is off." My mother used to unplug it. Or you can set up parental controls so you can block her shows when you want her off the TV. I think part of it is she is egging you and DH on and trying to get you to engage in negative ways. The why needs to be determined, probably in therapy. There is a difference in discipline and punishment, which is one of the chapters in How To Talk. It might be useful to read.

ETA: Someone else said you had previously said she was bullied. Could it be happening again and could that be contributing to her bullying her brother? I would investigate that further.

I think she's still kind of young for talk therapy. You might have better luck with play therapy. A good play therapist will tailor the play to the child's age so for your daughter, that could mean playing ping pong, or doing art therapy or anything, really. It can be very intimidating to be asked to speak to a total stranger, when you've already got anxiety.

While you're waiting for help from therapy, maybe you could try the opposite of whatever you've been doing. If she gets sent to her room, instead she has to sit & stay right next to you. That sort of thing. And if she's scared to sleep alone, would it hurt to let her sleep in your room on the floor? Maybe validating her feelings will help ease her anxiety a little. Best of luck.

I would be concerned that she is anxious about a REAL problem. Not some free floating anxiety but real reasons she doesn't want to be at school. Is she being bullied? Does she have a teacher she doesn't like or makes her feel dumb or awkward? Is she having trouble with the work? The fact that she isn't telling you doesn't mean a problem doesn't exist.

I would back off all the 'discipline' and try to connect with her as a person. Let her have her own space (her room) where her brother cannot come in. Let her close her door if she wants to.

Try to find out what she likes - she is growing and developing tastes and interests. Can you make time for a regular 'date' to chat - maybe something somewhat grown up like lunch or coffee out once a week. Without her brother.

If you don't work outside the home (meaning it is not hugely inconvenient for her to be home a few days) maybe let her take a few days off from school. Get her work from her teachers and work on it together. Maybe do something fun involving what she is studying (trip to the science center, lecture at a museum). Perhaps she will start to open up a little.

I see nothing in your question that indicates to me she has a mental health problem. I had the occasional stomach ache when I was a kid and hadn't done a school project. My mom kind of knew this and would let me stay home when this happened (rarely - I was a pretty good kid). Instead of punishing or disciplining, she gave me some space and I generally got back on track pretty quickly. My little brother was a true little instigator and lucky for him he was pretty fast too or I am sure he would have gotten hurt occasionally. Fortunately we each had our own rooms and a way to have alone time.

I would personally get rid of the tv for all concerned so it becomes a non-issue.

Sorry, I haven't read down yet. She definitely has panic and anxiety going on. When she says she feels sick, she probably does, even though it is not a "real" bug. As you said, she needs her therapy AT LEAST once a week until things calm down a bit and no, do not get her on meds after just one session, like you said. But do not rule them out. Give the therapy a chance. Find someone else if yours cannot fit you in more often.

One thing to remember is that behind anger is almost always another emotion and in her case it is fear and stress. Be patient and understanding but you also have to step in and be a parent when she is physical with you. I would call her therapist asap and get them involved in the discipline aspect. You need to get that under control. She is running your house.

Anxiety makes you feel like you are losing control and you need to feel as though you have control over something. It also makes you want to avoid the situations that caused the panic and anxiety AT ANY COST just to feel safe. She is trying to control everything while avoiding her worst fears-- her life as she knows it.

Call her therapist. Get her on the schedule more often and get some immediate answers to the discipline issues.

Get her outside and take walks with her. Exercise is a good mood booster and she may open up to you if she feels safe. Let her know you are trying to help her but she needs to play the biggest role.

I can only suggest what would have worked for me. Maybe it will give you a few more tools to try.

1. Seek a professional to help, you all need someone outside of your situation. I think something is happening that is way off. This sudden of a transformation is not normal. The "illness" to avoid school makes me think she's being bullied. Also she seems really smart and if you're not careful, she'll just get better at getting her way. I know I did and I hate that part of myself. You need someone trained to see through the BS and help you all.

2. No fever= No staying home. Talk to your school nurse, find out their illness policy. If you can, make it clear that if your daughter is not vomiting or doesn't have an actual fever, the nurse is NOT to call you. DO NOT let your daughter know about the vomit addendum. She sounds like she's becoming manipulative and if she's determined to "win" she will make her self throw up and you don't want to start that.

3. Punish her instantly according to her behavior. If you must, return to the discipline you used when she was elementary age. If she can not behave according to her age then you will begin treating her like a small child again. Time outs and possession removal may be the way to go. Granted you may find her room becoming very bare, but you cannot give in anymore.

4. Remove all electronics and base usage on daily good behavior. She has to be good first, then she get's her hour of TV time.

Your specific examples:
Violence again her brother, remove her brother, remove the TV, and remove her to her "time out" place. It should not be her room. While she is serving her time, you may want to remind your son about knocking and privacy.
Calling you names, firmly tell her that is inappropriate language and sit her in time out and remove the TV once again.

I think you also need to develop a tougher shell to her words. The things I said to my mother, I still apologize to this day. I even knew then it wasn't her I was mad at. Something was "wrong" and it wasn't between her and I, yet she was who I lashed out at. I know I crushed her at the time, but she let me scream and told me to go for a walk every time (this could be done safely where we lived with no fear of me running away). It gave me time to calm down and come back, sometimes I took 3 or 4 walks in a day, but I'm here and I'm happy and I adore my mother and admire her so much.

Main issue, you all need help, real caring help, from someone certified.

I wish you all the best.

I want to help you if I can, because I went through something similar with my daughter last fall, although hers was more of a depression and anger problem. She exhibited similar behaviors. We thought that the depression was due to social problems she was having at school, so I actually ended up home schooling her. (The problems had gone on for over a year, and weren't getting any better.) I thought home schooling would improve things, but it didn't, so we started having her see a psychotherapist.

However, she was resistant to talk or open up to the therapist, and she started making comments about wanting to die. We were desperate like you. So I contacted Alexian Brothers Behavioral Health Hospital in Hoffman Estates to try to get her in to see a psychiatrist. Because of her statements about wanting to die, they recommended their "Child Partial Hospitalization Program". She would go there for 6 hours a day, five days a week. It was for kids ages 8 to 12 with emotional/behavior problems like anxiety, depression, school refusal, etc.) The typical length of the program is 3 weeks. It consists of different types of group therapy, one-on-ones with a psychiatrist and therapist, and a couple hours of school work each day. Plus, there was a family session each week with the therapist assigned to her.

During the program, the psychiatrist prescribed an anti-depressant for her. This is what I think really started to improve things. Her mood is more stable, and things overall are so much better. She's still seeing her original psychotherapist, and is finally starting to open up to her.

Maybe this kind of program would work for your family. We didn't have to wait for several weeks to get our daughter into the program -- I think they are pretty quick about getting the kids in.

If you have any questions, feel free to PM me.

What does her therapist think is going on?

A typical child needs stability. They need consistency. They need rules.

Then you have children that need it all of the time. No letting down, no backing down, no wearing you down. They test as a way of making sure they are getting attention.

It is in a negative way, because they may not feel like when they do a good job, an expected job, an ok job, this does not give them the attention they crave.

In an adult we would consider this a "high maintenance" person. You know, the employee that does their job, but wants a lot of thanks and public recognition, even though they are doing what they are supposed to be doing because they ARE being paid to do this.

You need to come up with a plan and stick with it. Work with her Therapist about what this should look like.

This will need to include her father, The school, the Principal and her teachers. Let them know you are working on this problem, but there may be mornings where she is going to be at school, but it will include kicking and screaming. Find out what this will mean so you can back them up. Will she sit in the office until she calms down? Are you allowed to take her with a change of clothes, because she is not willing to change out of her pajamas?

Mom find your strength. She is begging for stability. She needs you to be the rock in her life. She needs to know when you tell her no, you mean it.
No matter how hard she fights, you, No matter how loud she yells, that you are so strong, you will not back down, because you are the Mom, you make the rules, you love her and you know she can handle it.

It could be that she is afraid of growing up and having to be responsible for herself. Perfectionist? Afraid of change? Sensory problems? Self control problems? Something Traumatic or a giant change that has overwhelmed her?

All kids go through changes. Many times, they are nervous about not knowing what to expect. As parents we need to not feed into it, even though, we are just as frightened as they are.

The louder she gets, the quieter you should speak with her. Get yourself ear plugs, lots of them. They will not block out sound, but they can take the edge off.

When she was a young child these are the things I did to reenforce my expectations.

I do not make threats. I make promises. If our daughter started yelling, she knew I was going to send her to her room to calm down. After a while she would just go to her room and calm down before she yelled.

If our daughter begged for something that I had already told her "no" about, she knew it would be a very, very long time, before she would be allowed to even bring up the subject.

The deal is that if she asked for something and I said no and she acted ok about it, I would thank her for not getting upset when I told her no.
"Thank you for understanding."
" I understand you are disappointed, but thank you for understanding."
" I can tell you are upset. But this is just not something you can do right now."

We learned to make compromises and I learned that if I gave her options or reasons, this worked for her.

"No we cannot invite a friend over, because I have a lot of house work I have to get done today. Maybe if you help me and we finish, there will be time for a friend to come over."

"No, you will not be able to to go to Sally's Birthday Party, because we are going to Grandmas, house that day. How about you invite Sally over another time, to play and have lunch next weekend?"

"No I will not buy that book for you, but you have some birthday money. Would you like me to pay for this book and you pay me back when we get home? "

For you son...you can teach them a dual lesson, if you are willing.
When she beats on him, and you intervene, he gets to hit her back as hard as he wants while you watch. You want to hit? The consequence is that you get to know how it feels. This also teaches your son that it's OK to defend himself when someone gets physical with him. Win/win.

For your daughter...when she comes out of her room today, that means that she is fine to go to school. Haul her in. Even if there is only an hour left.
That is what she is afraid of. You just need to figure out why? Mean girls? Mean boys? Social anxiety? And I think the therapist will help, but honestly, she just sounds manipulative, rather than mentally unstable.

Hang in there mama, and be TOUGH. You can do it!

she says she is sick so... have you taken her to the doctor for a complete physical, complete with lab work - urine, bloodwork, hell do a stool culture too... anything that might show up an issue. If nothing shows up then tell her that the new rule is from now on if she doesn't have a fever or actually barf then she is not staying home/coming home. And if she IS home then all electronics are gone for that day AND THE NEXT. I know, so much harder to do then say, trust me, my own 11 yr old has been a monster lately.

That at least helps with the school missing thing. As far as the rest, I wish I could help you more. I am struggling with my own 11 yr old. Turns out that when she gets a UTI there are only two symptoms - random fevers, and an unbelievably horrid attitude towards everything. I know attitude doesn't seem like it can by a symptom but it sure is with her. This last time I got so sick of the chores not being done and her snottiness that I took away all electronics. Because I didn't want to backslide I gave them to a friend to keep at her house until the week of punishment was over. I have also had to write on the calendar "no friends for X till this date" or similar things so that I don't forget in my being busy or tiredness.

And now I will be writing a huge note to post - "if X gets a fever get urine tested immediately" to hopefully head this off in the past. It's amazing how it is tied to her attitude.

I know I'm not helping much, but commiserating with you that I'm right there with you.

While I don't have a child of my own the same age as your daughter, I have been there in a different way. I was a housemom at a children's home and had up to 6 pre-teen/teen aged girls living with us at a time. Much of what you are experiencing, I've been through as well, just with other people's children.
I was glad to read that you have her seeing a specialist and plan to ask for weekly appointments. Plus that you've decided to hold off on medications. If it's possible, ask about a psych evaluation. It may be more than just anxiety going on. If available in your area too, try a family type counseling. Not saying that there's a big family problem, but it may be of help with her learning and practicing to communicate better with you and you and your husband with her. Teens certainly speak another language! One of the counselors at the children's home does this with some of the teens here and their families about once a month.
There may be more than meets the eye going on too since it sounds like she doesn't want to go to school, perhaps something is happening there?
You're her best advocate for help and care and it sounds like you're on the right trail for helping your daughter.
Good Luck!

Very narrow answer to your very big and difficult problem. Could you make it a rule that unless she has a fever she goes to school/ sits in class? Seems like an objective measure that can be imposed at home and by the nurse.

If you are feeling exasperated maybe some therapy/ coping/ even a night out with hubs and a glass or wine are in order.

Best,
F. B.