Huge Tantrums Still Happening at 4 - Brentwood,CA

First, if you are giving in to the tantrums, the child learns that this works and will do it more often. It's hard not to, but the little one needs to learn that this won't work.
Vitamin B12 is good for anger. Go on-line and look it up to see what foods have B12 in it. That is good for all of us. lol

My five year old granddaughter was doing that also but not at home, only for her daycare provider. I sat her down and explained to her how ugly she is when she acts like that and how I can't imagine that she would want anyone to see her be so ugly. I also explained that people don't like to be around someone who acts like that and if she keeps it up, people will choose not to be around her and her day care provider (whom she adores) might simply say to me that she can't come back because she does not have to put up with that. she needed to know that people have choices about whether or not they spent time with her and that if she continues to act like that, they will choose not be be around her and she will find herself very lonely. I also followed that up with two full days in her room alone just so she would know what loneliness is all about. Hasn't had a tantrum since!

We have a great book that covers this, called what I wish I knew when my kids were young. We give them away, call A. at ###-###-####.

Hi A.,

Tantrums at four are normal, even at five. It's frustrating for us as parents as we thought when we were done with the "terrible twos" the tantrums were over. Good luck to you.

Have you tried giving her limited choices so she feels like she has some control ? Start with a statement that it is time to do something, then give her a choice about how she wants to go about it.
- It is time for dinner. You can put the food on your plate, or I can. You choose.
- It is time to brush your teeth. You can choose the blue or the red toothpaste.
- It is time to get in the car. Do you want to go out the front door or through the garage to get there.

If all else fails, you can tell her she can do "x" (pick up toys, finish dinner, etc...) or have a time out - but that it is HER choice.

I agree with everyone's comments about not giving tantrums attention; however, the reason children tantrum is really a skills deficit (which is the same as immaturity). All children tantrum to some extent because they can't communicate effectively and resolve their frustrations and they don't yet have any flexibility skills. Many children until 6 or 7 have trouble problem solving, so if they can't get something they want or they're frustrated, they blow rather than trying to find a solution. Just because your daughter is bright and knows her school readiness academic skills doesn't mean she's yet mastered all the social and emotional skills. I prefer the preventive and educational approach to tantrums. To punish a child for being ineffective at expressing and working through their anger will not only make them angrier, it doesn't teach them the skills they need to not have to choose tantrums as a means of expressing their anger and frustration.

For example, rather than punishing a child, help them learn to communicate better. Giving the supermarket example, BEFORE you go into the supermarket, remind her of the behavior that is expected and that if she wants the car cart, she has to ask nicely. Then when she does that, really lay on the praise. When we know our children are likely to blow up, we try to intervene before. Once they're in a tantrum, they're no different from us. We don't think very well when we're really mad and they don't either. We're constantly reminding them to tell us what's making them mad to help them learn to use their words, rather than their behavior to communicate and also to help them learn the labels for feelings. I will remind them that if they throw a fit, they definitely will not get what they want, but if they can talk to me nicely, we can try to find a solution that works for both of us. This also helps them develop empathy because they have to think about what works for us as well as them. I highly recommend the book, The Explosive Child, because it helps illuminate that behavior is communication and ways to help all children develop better skills. While it's a book designed to help parents with children that still throw tantrums way beyond age 4, it is also a great book for any parent to understand behavior as a means of communication, not a bad child, and how to help any child develop the skills they need.

Regarding ADHD: I don't know your child, but LOTS of children are full of energy that aren't ADHD. They're just happy and energetic children. ADHD is more a problem of being able to stay on task and to listen, but at 4, in my opinion, no children listen very well (-:!

Hi,
My name is Linnea Sword. I am 22 years old, not yet a mother (want to wait until at least 26) but when I was your daughter's age (older even) I had a bad problem with throwing tantrums when I didn't get my way. This may sound harsh, but it worked really well with me, and this is first hand. My mom would get a really small cup of luke warm water, and she would give me a couple of warnings to calm down. If I didn't listen, she would splash the water in my face. She only had to actually splash me with the water twice, and then it got to a point where if I started throwing a tantrum, she would just have to say "I'm getting the cup!" and it would stop me dead in my tracks. Like I said, I know it sounds harsh, but I have first-hand experience with that, and I was on the receiving end. On any hand, good luck!
Kind Regards,
Linnea Sword

Yes, you are getting ahead of yourself and expecting too much. Just be VERY consistent about ignoring the tantrums and find ways to give her choices so she feels empowered (like give her a choice between 2 cereals for breakfast rather than asking her what she wants for breakfast; forced choice.) Also, don't let her tantrums rattle you. Keep your cool and she'll let go of the tantrums in time.

Both my girls had tantrums off and on right up until 4 and then magically things shifted. My eldest who has been diagnosed with ADHD was more obstinate, energetic and angry at that age, but even my youngest was not immune to the occasional fit. You'll more than likely find age 4 easier than 3. Hold on mom, you're almost there!

I also would help her find constructive, creative ways to channel that energy, because even if she is diagnosed with ADHD later, there are many ways to work WITH it rather than AGAINST it.

If the only symptoms are energetic and throwing tantrums, it's too soon to tell if it's ADHD. If there's other symptoms (pessimism, impulsiveness, frequent injuries, not listening, etc...) and you're seriously concerned, there are a couple of books I highly recommend, "Taking Charge of ADHD" (for the medical approach,) and "The Gift of ADHD"(for the holistic approach.) And if you really want to go wild on researching ADHD, "The Edison Gene" looks at ADHD from an evolutionary point of view. Taking a browse at the first two will help you get a better idea as to whether or not you daughter would fall into this category.

It would be helpful to try to analyze the triggers of her tantrums. Is she routinely too tired? Does she need more quiet time on a lap? Does she get the attention she needs (though kids always want more). Is she always having to go, go, go and is getting stressed out? These things may just be creating tantrum situations that have nothing to do with ADHD.

I have an ADHD son and tantrums were still very much a problem even in 2nd grade. I have homeschooled this last year and read a lot and changed a lot in our home and now the tantrums are very rare. Thank goodness. But I have to be careful with him.

He gets overstressed easily. Is a perfectionist that gets frustrated to tantrums when asked to write or read much (even though he is talented at each). Cannot handle disappointment and does not adjust to changes in schedules or plans except with great difficulty. He is extremely difficult to motivate by rewards or punishment and basically will only be motivated by love. He knows what is right but will still choose otherwise because he wants things right now. I believe this is normal ADHD. He had total melt downs in school, he just couldn't handle the pressure, the focus on writing everything, and the disapproval of teachers and peers. Yet he is brilliant, very loving, and exceptionally kind. When taught in a different way he can focus for hours without a break. ADHD children hyperfocus and hate to be disturbed when they are interested in something.

ADHD is a different way of learning, not really just bad behavior. I would suggest you evaluate your's as well as your daughter's behavior and the triggers and if you believe she may be ADHD then get a book from the library and read before going to the doctors. The diagnosis is difficult and drugs the only alternative given. You may not want to go there. I have chosen to just make sure there were no underlying medical problems, be informed, and then change our lives in a way that allows him to grow up in a positive environment. If you understand her difficulties, you can make better choices for her that will help her while not drugging her out. There are wonderful things about ADHD children. Learn to appreciate them and you will be her best advocate.

Hi A.,

It sounds like it could possibly be ADHD. I went through that situation with my daughter who is now 13. You could do a little research on it online and ask your pediatrician for info as well.
When my daughter was diagnosed with ADHD, I was very reluctant to get her on medication. With time (and suffering) I came to welcome any help available. She was more immature than her peers and this affected her relationships with friends and even teachers (which is just heartbreaking for the both of you). Her grades were horrible as she was not able to focus. Going out to dinner was a frustrating ordeal as she could not sit in her seat for more than three minutes at a time. When I scolded her, I realized from her expression that she didn't realize what she was doing. It was like what I was repeatedly telling her would just slip her mind.
It's also sad because there were people (my firends, her teachers, etc.) who had no patience and their obvious dislike of her just broke my heart. (I found elementary school years to be the hardest).
If this sounds like your child, know that there is help. There are also support groups for parents as well as the child.
Good luck to you,
M

I don't think it is ADHD. Do you ever give in to this tantrums? If you do even once or twice it well tell her this is the way she can get what she wants. Or if anyone else who takes care of her gives in your efforts well be a waste. I know it is really hard but stand your ground. YOu might also need to be harder on the punishment for the trantrums. My friend has a 3 year old doing the same thing and what finally worked was not just taking toys away but making her put them in the trash and then wachting the garabge man take them away. She did this twice and the tantrums stoped. Not only was she not getting what she wanted but something she already had went away too. Hope you find a solution.
A.

Love and Logic. I have 3 kids under 6. I have tried everything. i can passionately say this works. I've stopped yelling. my kids listen and behave beautifully.
good luck.
loveandlogic.com

I don't know but I do know this: I can see a definite malfunction in the way ALL my children (ages 5, 7,and 11) act when they have had a lot of sugar within the past 24 hours.
Oh my gosh! Whiney, crying easily, fighting amongst eachother (and tantrums from the youngest.) The smallest thing becomes so big. ( I notice I am highly edgy when I drink caffienated coffee - the next day I am somethin'.) Maybe it's caffeine in the chocolate, maybe its the sugar. I DUNNO. That's the story in my house. It just dawned on me recently.

My 3 year old starting screaming at me using words when he didn't get what he wanted or if I argued against what he wanted. I read some books, tried their advice and it WORKED! The thing that these books tell you is to address their EMOTIONS. That usually does the trick. It isn't about getting what they want, it is about you empathizing with them about their emotions and giving them words for that powerful feeling they are experiencing. If she is mad because she can't eat candy for breakfast and throws a fit, try saying, "You are mad! You are REALLY mad, because you can't have candy for breakfast!" Something like this. Then, grant her the wish in fantasy only, such as, "I wish I could give you a jarful of candy for breakfast. That would be really cool, wouldn't it?" These books advise you to handle their emotional outbursts in such a manner and believe it or not, it worked right away for me. My son calmed down and looked at my in shock that I somehow knew that he was angry. The tantrums stopped and after only a week of my behavior change, he started saying stuff like, "mom, I am mad, because you wouldn't buy the jelly beans in the store for me," in a VERY calm and adult-like manner!!! The books that helped me are "How to Talk so Your Kids will Listen and Listen so your Kids Will Talk" as well as "Between Parent and Child", "Positive Discipline for Preschoolers" and finally, "Playful Parenting". All of these books have GREAT ideas on how to deal with the daily challenges of having young kids (as well as older kids). I know time is scarce when you have two kids (I have a 3 year old and a newborn), but I stayed up after they went to bed just to read these books, because they REALLY helped me get through the day in a positive way and really helped to eliminate all the power struggles that were happening. Just remember...acknowledge their emotions! Give her the words defining that emotion that she is feeling...let me know how it goes!
Good luck!

Tantrums are all about getting attention or getting what they want, so don't ever, ever give in to a tantrum. If one of my kids pitches a fit for something and it may have been something that was a reasonable request, if they don't ask with a nice voice, w/out all the drama, then they absolutely don't get what they wanted. And try your hardest not to react too strongly, just keep your resposes as even as possible.

On a recent grocery trip I started to reach for a regular cart and my daughter screamed and cried that she wanted a car cart. Very calmly, I told her that a car cart would have been fine had she asked in a nice voice, but since she didn't, then she has to hoof it with the regular cart. And the good news is, the next time we're at the store, ask nicely for a car cart and I'd be happy to find one. The end.

We've been through enough of these instances where she knows that further fit pitching is futile, so she doesn't even bother, but had the fit continued, there would have been further consequences. Like, you can walk with me nicely, or you can take a timeout right here in the store, or your favorite stuffed dolphin is going in my purse, etc.

And I agree with another post here...give her the choice to make a good decision. If it is in her control to stay out of a time out, and she learns from your consistency that if she doesn't choose well a time out is imminent, then she'll start opting for the better choice, even if it isn't her first choice.

Good luck!

She will throw tantrums until she is thirty if the end result is her own way. This is totally normal. Just tell her when she is throwing a tantrum that the behavior will not get her what she wants and stick to it. Tell her if she asks nicely maybe.

You've had great advice. I'd just like to add that at 4 ADHD is too hard to diagnose. She's only 4. She doesn't have the self-control skills that older kids have; she needs to learn them. When she throws a tantrum walk away if you are somewhere safe (home or a friends/family house). If it is in public, pick her up and put her in/on something to keep her safe (her car seat in the car, a shopping cart, or leaver her on the ground). Don't acknowledge her at all until the tantrum is done. Then give her the words for her emotions and let her know that we cannot always have our way. My 5 year old still has unreasonable wants. When he asks for the moon to be brighter we tell him, "No, that is an unreasonable request. We have no control over the moon." Basic explanations go a long way to help. Also, if you see a tantrum starting give the basic explanation after awhile, she should lessen the full blown tantrum as she starts to understand what an unreasonable request is.

Tantrums usually continue because they work for her in some way. You need to look closely at what she accomplishes with them. Does she get your undivided attention? Does she get access to something that was restricted or prohibited? Does she have the communication skills she needs to convey her message? Move slowly on the ADHD thing. What a lot of kids need is structure and predictability in their lives that can help them manage and organize their lives better. Also, being busy and active physically, always helps kids.
If the behavioral/attentional issues persist when she's in school then you can you can get some evaluations done.
Just my thoughts.

A daycare friend of ours told my Mom one day when they were out socially that the even numbered years are the hard years and the odd numbered years are the easy ones. Those years are the years with all the transitions. My 4yr old still throws tantrums once in awhile and pushes every button she can, time outs are if not daily, still weekly occurances. Problem is that with two kids both in even numbered years (4 & 2), I have a double whammy. 3 &5 will calm down a bit. Good luck and try to just ride it out!

Raising Your Spirited Child: A Guide for Parents Whose Child Is More Intense, Sensitive, Perceptive, Persistent, and Energetic (Paperback, 1992) Other Editions...
Author: Mary Sheedy Kurcinka

I can't say enough about how much this book will help you. I promise. It's made a world of difference for me. Please give it a try. Good luck, C.

Your daughter is FOUR. She will probably still have tantrums when she is 5 and ocassionally when she is 6 and 7. Maturing is a PROCESS. Be thankful for the longer periods between tantrums and be thankful that she is learning to write her own name and whatever else she has acomplished. Be consistent with expectations and consequences and gradually, the tantrums will reduce in frequency, intensity, and duration. I know it would be nice to have the tantrums end before your younger one gets into them heavily, but there is no magical age when they just stop. My kids are 21 months apart. You just get through it!

I know you've already posted your "so what happened", but thought Id chime in anyway... I'm the mom of 2 4-year olds. Please don't be so quick to label your child. I think tantrums are still VERY normal at this age. My daughter has always been the screamer, and is VERY persistent to get her way - with me and her brother. The best thing I can say is to clearly let her know what your expectations are in whatever situation, and what the consequences will be if she doesn't meet those expectations, and then FOLLOW THROUGH. Often, I just tell her what I expect and then when she starts to object(or worse), I say "you heard what I said; we're not discussing this until you calm down." Then I walk away - don't give her any attention while she's behaving in an unacceptable manner. You can also threaten to (and then do) take away whatever is important at the moment (for my daughter, it's one of her "pretty dresses" or a favorite activity - "big girls who get to go to x don't scream like that"...) Sometimes, I think my daughter just needs to "let it out" then she can calm down and deal with whatever it is.
Be consistent and be patient. It will get better.

Hi A.,
Your daughter needs consequences for her actions. Calmly explain to her that you will take away her privileges if she does not behave. She's the kid - YOU are the Mother. Take control and don't expect her to act like a grown-up when she can almost write her name. You say she is smart and happy, maybe she needs some guidelines from you as to what is acceptable - give her boundaries and don't go down the ADHD road. She is way too young for that. With patience and firmness you can do this, A.! I believe in you! Patti B.

A book recommendation: To Train Up A Child, by Michael and Debi Pearl.

By throwing tantrums, your daughter is pitting her will against yours. Does she ever win? If so, she will continue having the tantrums because she knows that, by displaying that sort of behavior, she will sometimes/always get her way. Punish her for the tantrums, and when she has one, never, ever, EVER let her win.