Help! My 11 Year Old Boy Is Extremely Defiant and We're Out of Ideas..

I didn't get to read your question, but from reading the answers I can only guess what your son is like and our son used to be a lot like this. I found a really good child therapist (who also met with me) who specialized in ODD, ADHD, Anger and mood issues, defiance, and anxiety. She worked one on one with our son to take responsibility for himself and his own actions..he KNOWS the right thing to do. But as he once told me, he felt like he would rather DIE than lose the argument with us. So...I am going to recommend you change to a new therapist. My son went for about 2 years...and it was amazing how much he changed (age 10-12). If your son is like mine it does NOT work to try to control him. Grounding him for long periods of time, spanking, making him run laps, or other authoritarian type things just do not work. It is hard for parents to changes if they were brought up to believe these methods are right because this is what was done to them as a child. But your son is not you. These methods will never work. Instead it makes him angry and even more determined. The therapist worked with me to let things go. To not care so much about certain things. Let his teacher deal with him about homework. Let him go to school without a shower. Just let it go. It felt weird...like she was telling me to not care about my son. She worked with him to be responsible for himself and to do these things on his own...she was very cool and really bonded with him over video games and whatnot so he respected her and liked her a lot. This was a part of her plan...she basically spent the first month or more just bonding with him, hanging out basically. Anyway...I learned a lot. My son changed a lot. I learned that I needed to work on bonding with him again. He came up with the plan that he would teach me a new video game each week and we would play together (something I have no interest in). We started laughing a lot together. I also learned that he is who he is...I cannot make him into this other person that I wish he was. I learned to empathize more with him. I can't tell you how she got him to change bc their sessions were one on one and private. My son is very smart and he respected that. Anyway...I hope things get better. I think maturing and getting older also helped with our son.

Yikes! I think you need a new counselor. You're doing a lot of the right things, which is great, but the recent punishment is one where you've locked yourselves and your son into an escalating spiral of wills. Three weeks is a long time to hang on to a punishment, and it won't be effective at that point anyway. My 13 year old is like your son. We removed privileges from him a couple of years ago over something stupid and minor that he had to do (I don't recall the details, but it was like "read this book for school" or "do your homework" or something he was totally capable of doing). No friends, no electronics until he did his task. Three weeks later he was still locked in to NOT doing it and while he eventually did the assignment, he didn't learn from it or change his behavior going forward. With defiance, when you get to a battle of wills, the kids generally win. The satisfaction of being angry with you is more valuable and motivating than the ability to do what they want. Neurologically, the fight scratches an itch for them, and they'll continue to fight even against their own best interests because that's how they're wired.

My recommendation would be to look into oppositional defiant disorder and get a counselor who is experienced in this. Normal parenting techniques don't work well for ODD kids. Also, has he been evaluated for mood/behavior/learning issues? Is he like this at school and activities or just at home? There is a strong overlap between ODD and ADHD. My 13-year-old's ODD tendencies greatly decreased once he was diagnosed with ADHD and on medication. Once he was on medication, his defiance was more like an annoying habit he had to work on than a compulsion that he was at the mercy of. He still doesn't like to do chores or HW, but now he has the ability to weigh consequences and choose what's in his best interest. Like now, he can pause and think "fine, I'll stop what I'm doing and put in some laundry so that I can return to my game after" where before, his thoughts were more like "NONONONONONO DON'T DO WHAT THEY WANT NO MATTER WHAT you can't make me, you won't make me, ever."

I think demanding an apology sets you up for a battle of wills that you cannot win. At this age, they'll refuse and dig in their heels. I actually don't believe in forcing apologies when they're little either - they aren't really sorry, so they learn that "I'm sorry" is the same as "Do-over. Clean slate. It's like it didn't happen." An apology is nice for the person who was wronged or hurt, but if it's insincere, it's pointless. It has to be accompanied by real remorse and a desire to not reoffend. None of that is present in little kids, and it's often not present in tweens/teens. (For that matter, it's not always present in adults - think of the typical abuser who apologizes and then goes right back to abusing his victim.)

Your husband has got to stop the spanking! He's doing it because he's frustrated and it makes him feel like he's got control over this child. He doesn't. It's widely ineffective anyway, and it says, "The bigger person gets to beat on the smaller one." Really, is that the lesson you want to teach? Soon, this child will be bigger and stronger than his mother and his grandmother - so what's his go-to method going to be?

Long term loss of privileges isn't working with your son. I don't know how long your son has been seeing a counselor, but if it's been a while and there's no progress, I think it's time to look for another counselor. Your best bet is either a psychiatrist or a psychologist/therapist who works with one. Either way, the person should specialize in adolescents and in oppositional type behaviors. I don’t know whether your son needs medication or not, and neither do you, because so far, you are lacking a definitive diagnosis. Meds aside, there are very specific behavioral therapies that are effective with kids like your son.

I think he wants things his own way, and going to the skate park and avoiding traditional school are his way of controlling his environment. The same goes for not engaging in any activities that require discipline or being part of a team (martial arts, etc.) or being accountable to anyone (piano lessons, etc.). That applies to the family too – he’s not a part of the team. And he’s really not accountable. You try, but what you’re using as “currency” and rewards aren’t working.

But he’s not succeeding at school, and he’s becoming very two-faced in his behaviors. So the current system isn’t working, and I think absolutely everything needs to be up for discussion. You can certainly put him in charge of his own laundry – but if he doesn’t go to regular school, no one’s going to notice if he’s filthy. I’m not sure you can just abdicate on the dental hygiene though – that’s going to verge on neglect and you will have the expense of massive bills and reconstructive work (crowns and root canals) while he is still a minor. I realize you can’t stand over him and force him to brush, but you’ve got to insist on more definitive diagnostic procedures and sessions to get to the bottom of this. Putting locks on your bedroom door and the kitchen cabinets won’t work long term as a parenting strategy.

At this point, I would discourage you from trying yet another method on your own. He’s too smart, and he knows you’ve tried everything else and will ultimately give up on any new strategy if he just outlasts you. But you have got to get control of this kid while he’s still young, or you are in for years of escalating behavior. Meantime, he’s really not happy – you must be motivated by that knowledge. He is miserable and angry – and that’s not normal. It’s no longer about what he wants or what he’ll go along with. It’s about an absolute parenting technique (or series of techniques) that you and your husband agree on (which isn’t happening now) and which is based on a definitive diagnosis (which you don’t have).

ETA - I can't believe you deleted your question! That's so insulting to everyone who has worked on a reasoned and thoughtful response.

I agree with JB. Get a new councilor. I hear that you don't want to put him on meds if you don't have to but there are other things that you can do besides meds. I know my ADHD son is not medicated and we have found other ways to help him. If we want to him calm down and focus we give him caffeine. I know he also bounces off the walls when he get's certain food colorings. You might Google ODD and you might find some info that will help you. You might even talk to him about it. Tell him we are going to try this with our diets to see if this will help.

I think you should NOT be forcing workouts or forcing him to run laps. (Although organized sports can be a great way to get out energy and learn a certain type of discipline/focus.)

It sounds like your son might need more organized extracurricular activities. Does he do any volunteer work? Participate in a church group?

It might be good for him to experience "taking orders" from someone other than a relative or a teacher - like a coach, a Scout leader, etc.

wow. I'm surprised ppl were calling names. It's amazing how we are supposed to unite on groups like this and then end up bashing and judging. Good luck to you.

Personally, I've found that grounding, especially long term, and demanding an apology (it won't be sincere) to be very ineffective.

You can model apologizing simply and sincerely whenever you are wrong. Don't expect it to come quickly from him, or on your terms. He's going to take more time to develop empathy.

I try to make consequences related to the circumstances. He's refusing to do the chores? Let him refuse. Don't show emotion, don't engage the battle. You need to be patient and wait to play your card. Maybe this has become a bad habit, or a game, maybe he wants attention in the moment for his bad behavior subconsciously , don't give it to him. Then when HE seeks out something from you (screen entertainment, Wi-Fi, magazines, ride to a friend's house, etc) tell him yes, right after he completes the chore, because chores are to be done before play or entertainment. Helping Grandma move is over, but you can come up with some kind of rough equivalent chore.

You may have to lock up the cookies and brownies at night, find a way to remove the TV or power to the TV at bedtime. Or better yet, get rid of it, until he demonstrates getting a proper night's sleep, if this is a middle-of-the-night issue. Lock your bedroom door if you must leave the house. Maybe get him his own magazines to read is his own room, if that is what is so appealing about yours. I can think of worse things to do when one is bored and home alone.

I'm with you on not wanting to medicate. Try natural methods for better sleep hygiene. Get him up early in the morning. Make sure he gets a good dose of physical activity, outside play, reading before bed, etc. Swimming, is awesome to help sleep, I've found. Do you have a YMCA that has some evening family open swim times? Also, you can expect him to have much more difficulty sleeping at night if he's spending hours of his daytime grounded in his room. You want his brain to correlate his bed/bedroom with rest and sleep. Maybe he's getting too much of that during the day. Good luck!

Please continue the family counseling.
(Not just your son seeing counseling but you and dad too).
You need some professional help and techniques to handle him.
If it's bad now - it'll be worse when he's a few years older.

You can't trust him - he's proven that - and he doesn't care.
He's not even concerned with earning your trust.
So don't trust him.
He's showing you who he is - so believe him.
Lock up everything he's not allowed to get into.
11 yrs old is borderline for a baby sitter.
Some could be home alone for a few hours at that age but not your son.
He's proven he needs supervision - so provide it.
(Some kids you can NEVER leave home alone no matter HOW old they get.)
Put an alarm on the doors/windows of the house so you know exactly when he's coming/going.
When tv isn't allowed - lock it up with plug locks (no power = no tv).
When computer isn't allowed - lock it up in a file cabinet.

AND - tell him he's got 7 more years till he's 18.
It's not too soon for him to be thinking about his exit plan - because he's not going to live with you forever - he's going to have to have a way to provide himself with food/clothing.shelter.
He needs an education, a job/career and 7 years seems like a long time away right now but it'll go by in a flash.
Even the armed forces require a diploma these days.
He needs to find a reason to care about his future.
Counseling should help with this.