For Those Who Are divorced...how Did You Know When It Was Time???

I've been there and I can only tell you what I did. I did not divorce him, in fact we're still married. What I did was to ignore him. Make dinner, do feed the kids, but not him. Don't do his laundry. Don't speak to him much at all. If you have to pick up after him, throw his stuff on the floor on his side of the bed. Make it clear that since he doesn't want to be a part of the family - he isn't. Treat him like he's not there at all. Do nothing for him that you usually do. See how he likes it. My guy hated it and improved. Good luck to you.

Hi D.,

I've been happily married for 16 years, so why respond?... 2 reasons

My parents were divorced when I was 4 1/2, and I barely remember it. I never went thru the "I wish my parents would get back together" phase or the "my parents got divorced because of me" phase.

I watched my best friend go thru a long, bitter divorce. In my opinion, if they had made the decision to split up earlier they would have saved everyone (especially the kids) a lot of pain. Her children were 8, 12 and 13 at the time and it was extremely difficult for them.

I truly hope you and hubby can work things out, but please don't stay together for sake of the kids.

Best of luck to you.

I knew when my ex would not go to AA and/or counseling. I only waited till my younger was in HS so she could be home alone. I do know that if you stay married 10 yrs, you will be able to collect on his SS. I had to get out, I wanted to leave earlier, I wanted to do something to fix us but his drinking escalated to 7 days a week. My younger one is still bitter about it, and am divorced almost 8 yrs. The right time is when you feel there is no other option. If you have a good support system, family and friends, then the time might be right for yuom but only you can decide, and wait till you pay lawyer fees, lol

The longer you wait, the harder it's going to be. At this age they will very quickly adjust, but when they're older it will be more difficult. They won't remember it any way else, and frankly...he's not home much anyway. I suspect they won't notice much of a difference.

To answer your question - I think you know it's time when he's given up on trying and you've given up on him. Sounds like you're there.

Look at it this way - if this were your daughter asking you for advice what would you tell her? Would you tell her to stay in an unhappy marriage or would you tell her to move on and create a happy life?

Whatever you choose - good luck to you.

Hi D. - Really great question, and lots of thought provoking answers. I have been divorced (no kids) and am the child of divorced parents. With my first marriage, I knew it was time when after our 3rd marriage counseling session where my husband didn't say anything, he called me and let loose on the phone without the therapist present. This was my breaking point, though it took him 8 months to even AGREE to therapy. Looking back, it was actually over for me after we had a serious discussion about his outside activities (similar to your husband and there was no adultery), and nothing changed, in fact the behavior became worse. I was so angry with him all the time, and when I told him I wanted therapy, he insisted I sleep in our guest room and no longer in our bed. So that's when it was over. I stayed a whole year past this point.

My parents stayed together for us kids, and divorced while we were teenagers (we were 19, 18, and 16). As a child living in a house where my parents were unhappy and not making any efforts to be happy (my dad gone all the time, coming home drunk, leaving my mom to do all the work, when they were together it was fighting all the time), I would like to say this: the message children receive from their parents about relationships, personal health and growth, and happiness are profound. It took me more than 10 years to unlearn what my parents taught me (including al-anon groups, therapy, bad marriage that ended in divorce, etc.).

We all want to do what's best for our children. I strongly believe that if you are unhappy in your marriage and you can't both agree to make it better (and it does take BOTH of you, not just you initiating change and hoping he goes along), then your children will see that and suffer. I'm not advocating divorce, it's not an easy road, and it's definitely not an "easy out" as some imply. But sometimes divorce is what's best for the whole family. Your children are very young and will learn the new family structure, will help form new family dynamics, and will continue to thrive and be loved by both their parents.

I see several people have offered you to email privately and maybe you're overwhelmed with responses, but you can message me as well if you like. I found great advice in "Codependent No More" and also in "When Things Fall Apart", if you are interested in reading. These are not the mainstream self help books but I still refer to them when I'm having an emotional crisis of any sort. I also found great solace in therapy. I didn't think I "needed" it but it truly helped me grow and learn. I know this is a hard time for you and your famiy. Best of luck to you, and stay strong.

Hi D.,

I have been where you are. I divorced my ex after 10 years of marriage, and many sleepless nights, because I too had small children at the time. I knew I needed to get divorced because I a) no longer felt safe; and b) no longer felt I could raise my children in the then present environment.

Looking back, and now being in a second marriage, I personally feel that marriage counseling has the best chance to be effective when the individual spouses are also in their own therapy and they are each making an effort to work through their own individual issues. If neither spouse is willing, then marriage counseling will not work.

Three and a half years ago I decided to work on my own issues and to focus taking care of myself and my children. I figured even if it didn't improve the marriage, I would still be healthier and better able to cope if I had to divorce again. It did improve things both for me individually and the marriage. I started learning how to set boundaries, i.e. I will not accept such and such behavior. When such and such behavior happened I had to decide what I would do about it. For example, my present husband went through a time when he would come home late, past dinnertime and often not call me. I decided that if I did not get a call by 7 then if the kids and I had not already eaten we would go ahead and eat and I would put the food away. Is that a big deal? It was a change because I used to have his food plated and set out for him no matter when he came home and I would re-heat it if he was late, then I would sit with him while he ate. He got the message eventually. A real turning point was when I wanted to attend a support group that met in the evening and I could not count on him to be home in time for me to leave. I didn't even tell him about it. He came home to find a babysitter in the house. He started coming around. In any case, even if he had not, I had made sure that I could attend the support group and the kids were being watched. The bottom line is I focused on what I could change---me and my reactions. Once I started responding differently to my husband, he had to change how he responded to me. I could not and still cannot control how he responds to what I do, but I think he realized that if he wanted the marriage to work, he would have to make some changes, which to some extent he has.

I think that what I did worked, because through my behavior I showed my husband that a)I was not going to just take what he was doing b)I accepted that I could not make him do anything and c)I was going to do what was necessary to get what I needed. He then had to make a choice as to whether he wanted to be part of the equation or not.

For me the bottom line is, if after taking care of everything that I can control, can I live with the situation? If no, then I know I have to make my exit.

Hope this helps you a bit. Sorry if it was a bit longwinded. Feel free to contact me privately if you'd like.

J.

Hi D.,

I must say I am shocked you did not get one encouraging note to continue to try to make it work. Friends and family were just talking about this the other day, as we dealt with another child we knew who was in terrible crisis, that we did not know of any child who was not damaged/impaired by their parent's divorce. I know the current thinking is they shouldn't witness a bad marriage, but there is no scientific evidence supporting this position. It is your choice and your husband's choice about the quality of your marriage, don't make your children suffer for those choices. I totally agree with the woman who said to just focus on what you can do to improve the marriage. You go to counseling, you make the first steps towards healing by respecting your husband as a living person, by acting in unconditional love before he does. If you really love your children sacrifically, you will be willing to love your husband sacrificially. Surely that kind of environment would encourage him to stay at home. I know you have not shared all the details and I am giving my opinion on inadequate information. First let me say if you are in an abusive relationship I am not suggesting you or your children should stay in an unsafe environment. But you have not said that and I didn't want the vote to stay in your relationship to go uncast. I have been married a little over 20 years and there were long periods in there when I thought I deserved better, or life was to short to miss out on the love we so desire. Now I am thrilled I stuck with it. We love each other more than ever and have so much history that makes our marriage rich, comforting and alive. Please keep trying everything possible. Maybe, in addition to your personal counseling, try The Love Dare and see what happens. I know it has a spiritual element, but I think the pricinples are sound if your really want to make it work. My words are not meant to be harsh and I don't judge people who divorce, I only grieve for them and all the pain they and their families will suffer. Please be careful.

Hi D.,

I am sorry to hear that you are having so much difficulty. I am divorced and left my husband over 3 years ago. It took a long time, a lot of unhappiness, frustration, disappointment and tears for me to make that decision. I prayed about it - a lot! I went to marriage counselling (he refused to go) and I can only tell you that eventually, I knew I didn't have a choice. Our circumstances were very different and I can only say that a "peace" came over me. Other than the day I left, I've never shed another tear. My children have adjusted and since he was never involved to begin with, they don't miss him. He takes them 2 overnights a month and that seems to be all he is capable of and all they can handle. Please pray about your situation, or ask others to pray for you. I believe if we give our problems to God, he will show us what direction to take, as he has a Plan for all of our Lives.

I am not sure when you know when, but you can't stay for the kids, if he's not willing to work on things, then I think that is your answer. The kids will know too much, even if you don't do anything in front of them, and that is what you have to deal with later on. I know it is hard, but the kids will understand in the long run, maybe not right away. You need a plan first, don't just up and leave, discuss everything and this should make it easier. Good luck.

Do you still love him?
Do you have "some" special times together still?
Is that he goes out with friends the biggest issue you have?
He won't always be "young" and things never stay the same.
If you look at the whole picture, things can sometimes seem clearer. For example....look back 3 years ago, 5 years ago, 10 years ago, etc.....Your life had probably changed drastically thru the years. Now think of life in 2 years, 5 years, 10 years in the future.....

My hubby and I went thru a very, very rough patch last year and I almost left him then. He works ALOT and is not home often, and when he is home, he is always doing something and not spending "quality time" with me or our 3 1/2 year old son. ....But I looked at the whole picture, example.. the roof over our heads and the time we do spend together is great, he is working so I can be home with our Son, etc.

And remember, most men do not adjust well to being parents and especially when the kids are young.
But the kids do grow up and you will find that as time goes by, maybe your husband will get into the groove. That is if he is worth it. And if you love him and he loves you.

Just like you, I too didn't know if it was time to leave or if I would regret it, etc. But I never stopped loving him - sure I didn't "like" him very much then, but my deep down love for him and the life we had was what kept me there and we worked thru it. Our son is now 3 1/2 years old and we seem to have gotten into a groove now. Last year, I think we were still adjusting to our new roles of being parents. I remember I was so confused....and that is what kept me there....I just wasn't sure and I didn't want to regret it when it was too late. Friends of mine who are divorced, all told me that when it is over, it is over. You will not have a doubt. BUT one other friend told me that if she knew how hard it was to be a single parent, she would have stuck it thru the tough times, and still be with her ex.

I wish you luck and hope you can work it all out and be a happy family.
Don't just focus on his faults......keep positive and look to the future.

D.,

I would never tell anyone to stay in their marriage if they were not happy, but being a single mom is not easy either. I was divorced my first marriage when my son was 19 months old and it was very difficult on both of us. There really is no winner in a divorce everyone looses. This does not mean you should stay for your kids I am simply suggesting you exhaust all avenues before throwing in the towel. My ex-husband did the same thing out with his friends all the time leaving me and the baby home. I felt like a single mother so I chose to become one. Some men take a long time to grow up and live up to their responsibilities I guess it just matters how much we are willing to tolerate. I became extremely resentful and was to the point where I couldn't even stand to look at him. I did have a happy ending I met a wonderful man who loves my son as his own, and we have a daughter together. My son does not see his dad he is now 24 and he did suffer some self-esteem issues as a result of his fathers rejection. The kicker for me is when my son was under two we were visiting my grandfather. He had a nurse who put my grandfathers medications in a paper cup. My son drank the cup and swallowed some pills before I could get to him. I had to rush him to the hospital by myself and when I called my husband to say they were admitting him he told me to get my mom to come because he was out with the guys. THAT WAS IT FOR ME!!! My son ended up being fine but the point is he was a true jerk and I do not regret my decision. However just make sure you try everything before you throw in the towel. Have you tried a date night when you are both relaxed and not with the kids to really tell him how you are feeling? I hope things work out for you, trust me the grass always looks greener on the other side. I think if you are asking us then you are not at your breaking point yet. There was no doubt when I reached mine. Good luck!! And Happy New Year!!

Dear Abby once told a reader something that has stuck with me for years. Ask yourself this question. "Will you be better off with or without him?" And in this case will you children be better off with or without him? Is the time he spends at home a pleasant one or does he visit his friends to escape? Can you compromise and ask him to spend 2 or 3 days a week at home, then plan a fun activity. Marriage and child rearing are hard work, no matter what anyone tells you beforehand.
Whatever you decide will be hard, but you have to decide if its worth it in the long run. Are you willing to be alone or are you thinking you will find a different more caring man? That will not be easy either. Good luck with whatever you decide.

Hi D., I married 2 Peter Pans. When the first one didn't grow up everyone said it was because he was young, so then I went out and married an old (20 years older than me) Peter Pan. We took separate vacations because he wanted to go with friends and I went to my parents, he was always going out drinking with his friends and unfortunately he was also abusive, but I knew it was time to leave when I couldn't picture living the rest of my life that way. My sister had died and it really brought home how short life is. We had a six year old daughter, who is now 28, and she has never asked about him, even when we were leaving (which we did while he was at work). I have now been married for 21 years to a wonderful man who adopted my daughter, would rather spend time with me than anyone else and doesn't go out to all hours with the guys. It is a very hard decision to make and I think you should also take into consideration that our children learn how to act from us and if their father is acting in ways that you do not want your children following you need to act now. Also, sometimes you can go back. Maybe leaving will finally get it through to him that his actions are hurting his family. I wish you and your children much luck.

D.,

I found the same experiance with my ex. I did it when my daughter turned two so she wouldn't remember it. Do it now if you think that it wont last because the older they are (in my opinion ) the more it will hurt them..Would they be in a better situation with 2 unhappy parents in o0ne house? I got over the guilt ...kind of.. when I knew that us living together would make her life hell.

Dear D.,My heart breaks for your dilemma, it truely is one of those that give the word pain a new meaning. Yes, I too after ten years of marriage had it ended. Way too long of a story to to tell except for the outcome. To say do the adults get over it eventually and move on, yes; that's just the truth of it, however, not without pain that WILL last you the rest of your life; afterall, you did speak those words: For better or worse.....and if we have any concience at all when we break our word it does somthing to the spirit of person, I don't care who you are. As far as the children go, it is devastating, PERIOD. Their lives will never be the same. It doesn't matter if Mommy or Daddy finds someone else, THEIR Mommy and Daddy no longer exist in the manner in which they know is supposed to be right. D., I have to ask you a question, did you honestly love him when you got married? Did you REALLY mean it when you said for better or worse? Even in the Bible it give an escape clause if you will, for divorce when it comes to adultry. However, that is the only case in which God feels it's ok. Please understand I am not here to lead you to God, Jesus or anything else. Just asking you to consider some things before you make a life altering decision. There is PLENTY of wisdom found in that book called the Bible. It's funny but someone came up with the acronym, Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth. In this one passage a man who is very ticked off at someone close to Him asks Jesus, "How many times must I forgive someone who causes me harm?". Jesus reply was, seventy times seven. Good Lord you mean in any one instance or day I must forgive someone 490 times.....somehow I can't help but think that God's wisdom behind this is that if you are willing to forgive someone that many times that eventually as you do you will find the love that you had for that person before they ticked you off and on the other side the person being forgiven will eventually not only see that love but begin to feel it and the thing about love when you feel it being given by someone, especially someone you say that you too care about, that love is returned. It's obvious your husband is inmature, selfish and self-centered, the question is do you believe with all your heart that he will never be anything but this? Or do you suppose that if you just go on living life with your children and go and do things with them that eventually he will see what he is missing out on and decide it's time to grow up and give back that same love and consideration he has received all this time that he didn't deserve? Now, there will unfortunately be probably many who will tell you he is a self-centered bum and get rid of him, but the real question is, what happens if you once again find a guy that you feel your in love with, get married and only find he too is self-centered, selfish bum. Do you just go on getting divorced or do you take a stand and say, I love this man and I'm going to prove it to him one way or the other because there is no way I am ever going to say to my kids, it was not Mommy who gave up? I pray D. you make the right choice. I pray your husband is driven to his knees by the Almighty God and gives thanks for the precious present He has bestowed upon him and knows it's time to stand up like a man and be the man he has been called too be. Be blessed!

I'm so sorry. No matter what you choose, I don't really know if it will be any harder than what you're already going through! You sound like the most fantastic mom, selfless and full of love.

Good luck, and remember that a happy mama = a good mama. Do what's right for you, showing your children that everyone works toward their own happiness. As long as you continue to shower them with love, and show respect to your husband (no matter what crappy choices he makes!), then your little ones will be just fine.

Take care of you!

From what you are saying here, it seems your husband has a lot of growing up to do. There is nothing wrong for either of you to have alone time with friends, but when it becomes more important then being active and apart of the family something is really wrong....

Maybe it's time to try a separation. Maybe he needs to move out, be on his own to help him realize what he is missing. Maybe he'll grow up then and decide to work on having a healthy relationship with you....or maybe not..

Go with your gut feelings. Look inside...listen. You will just know that you have given that marriage your best shot and have had enough.

You have choices.....

If you can come to terms with what he is doing and not doing and can get on with life with things as they are and I mean fully excepting the situation as is.... then do so. But this means you have to stop fighting with him, trying to change him or the situation and not be able to have him to count on. You'll need to keep house, work at your job, deal with your children, and hire the help that you need so you'll have sometime to have some social yourself. Yes, much like single parents do. And know that's what your children will grow up learning about relationships and marriage......not good.

If you can no longer except his behaviors and he is not interested in going to therapy to work and meet you half way on the problems then talk to him about moving out and how much money you are going to need from his salery to run the house with your two children. Figure out before hand what you will need and be firm about this coming first before what ever it's going to cost him to live elsewhere.
If he makes a fuss about it, stay calm, don't get into a power struggle with him. Give him a chance to work it out in his head and when he's not around call a lawyer and find out what your rights are. Don't take action on anything else at this point, just gather information on how you will survive $$ and what you can legally do to get that and to get him to move out.
When you talk to both, keep notes, keep a log on all information.
Make sure your children aren't around when your talking to your husband or a lawyer about any of this. Although they are young and don't understand what is going on, do keep in mind they are picking up and feeling the stress, attitudes, frustrations and unhappiness from both you and their Dad. No matter what direction you decide to take, work on keeping your spirits up in terms of your children...Keep them secure and loved at all times.

Keep in mind you deserve to be happy. If your husband is so not into sharing that happiness with you...then you deserve to be free to find that happiness for yourself and for your children.

I know you have a lot of mixed feelings now and are frightened but no matter what, be good to yourself, know your worth. Know you will and can survive without him. Either choice is not going to be easy. Nothing in life is easy....we pick our pain, our goals, our roads and it takes hard work, time and patience to get through it all. You aren't alone and will survive.

In terms of your question about the effects on children... when one parent leaves the family unit, being due to death, seperation, and divorce encluding long business trips. ....they will experience feelings of abandonment.. They don't understand what is going on yet they know something is changing and something is not right....they do become frightened and insecure....children even blame themselves for their parents problems.. It's all normal feelings and it all has to be delt with....not ignored.
Some couples get so angry with each other, they forget that children have feelings and they use the children as amo to hurt each other....Some couples even spend a life time bad mouthing each other to their children...it all has to be delt with properly.

But know when the relationship isn't right between Mom and Dad...it's best in the long run for them to grow up with single happy parents...or even step parents who are healthy who love them. With love, help and support, children adjust and grow up well.

Your children are very young now...and I tend to think if you devorce now...it would be easier on them in the long run....

Hi D.,

I am at that point right now and I am also wondering how this will affect my 2 year old daughter. All I can say, is that I determined that I want out becuase of my daughter. I want her to see what "love" really is. Not that I don't love her father but we are not "in love" anymore. He too, refuses to grow up (not with friends so much but with his ways). He is very selfish and for the most part puts his needs in front of hers. I don't want her to grow up thinking it's okay to settle (and that is what I am teaching her right now). I want her to be surrounded by love and happiness and not to fake it (like I am doing right now).

I hope this helps a little with your question about knowing when "enough is enough". If you want someone to talk to, feel free to email me ____@____.com as we seem to be headed in the same direction. Best of luck to you!!
M.

Hi D.,
I know this is extremely hard to hear, but divorce is SO NOT the answer. I know you're not happy, I know you feel like you did everything you could and you feel stuck. Once you get a divorce, it is so final. There will be severe depression, not only for yourself but your kids as well. Your kids have a high percent rate of being divorced too, and not having the best boyfriends, if they are girls, and not treating woman nicely if they are boys. You always need a woman and male role model in your kids life. Even though you think your husband is not the best one now, he will, and I PROMISE YOU, he will grow up. Be patient. Your kids are watching your every mood, If you treat your husband aweful, they will too, they will grow up disrespecting him. They see how he treats you, but how you "fight" back is key. Kill with kindness. Let him know how you feel, gently, be honest, don't nag, say it once. Then walk away, it's hard to fight someone who is being nice to you. He WILL get the point. I know this is hard, but think of your kids happiness over yours right now, that's what being a mother truly is. Don't make the wrong choice and get a divorce, because in all honesty, he will move on with no problem, blaming you. And you will be sad and depressed. Think of having your kids stuck with a step mom, they hate! I am in that situation right now, I am forced to like her, so I can spend time with my dad, this is not what I wanted, but my mom was selfish, was putting her needs before mine. That's why I promise to have God first in our lives, because He says put Him and family above all else. And it's true, and I couldn't be happier. I know it's a long road ahead, but you can do it, be gentle with your husband, he will wake up and see how selfish and aweful he's been. It's a brand new year, it's a fresh start, promise to give all you have to your family, especially your kids. Good luck D., keep us informed!
God Bless!

Do you still love your husband? I'm a 30 something mom too and I'm not sure if you know that SO MANY other women/moms dislike there husbands right now too. Out of me and my friends we often say we want a divorce - and we mean it, but then we step back and really think about the whole situation and realize, while it may be hard to find, we do love our husbands and we try to remember why we got where we are today. I thought marriage was the hardest things ever - until I had a child and had to be a mother AND a wife. Now being a mother and keeping a marriage going is by far the HARDEST thing ever and its a constant hard. The thing my friends and I are learning from the older women in our lives is that they too hated their husbands when they had young children but over time things got better. You have to ask yourself if you love him. You have to look deep within and decide if the problems you have with him right now are worth divorce. Some things are unforgivable. I haven't done the marriage counseling but I have you tried counseling just for myself? Have you? I think it was a good thing to do b/c it helped me to deal with my husband better. It empowered me. I've learned that I can't necessarily change my husband but I can learn to communicate more effectively with him, I can control how I react to him and I can control ME. A counselor was so nice b/c she only listened to me, validated me, kept the conversation to the point and openend my eyes about me. There was no intereference about him. I decided to speak with a counselor myself b/c I decided that things weren't working out and it takes two people for them to not work out so instead of going to my husband expecting him to change, I decided to look within myself first...change what I was comfortable with changing (for me, not for him, learn WHY and how to communicate why I was so frustrated and angry with him and unhappy with him and learn how to handle better that which I could not change about him. Then if things weren't working out I could feel confident that I was doing the best I can... It is sooooooo HARD and it takes constant practice, but its worth it. You need to look within yourself to decide if you still love your husband - even if you hate him right now but I thought you might like to know that there are many women I know that hate their husbands right now...and I say hate b/c at the moment it is hate, but again deep deep deep deep down inside we do love them. Try to find why you fell in love with in the first place. Stress, responsibility, differing opinions, different lifestyles (which is what you and your husband do have right now)take a toll on us and on our marriage...if he hasn't cheated on you, isn't lying or stealing money or harming your children, I think you can work it out. Look within yourself - again you have the strenght and the power - we all do, we just have to learn how to use it.

Hi D.,
I am the last one to give the perfect advice regarding divorce, seeing I am on my third marriage....but I can tell you that from what I read it sounds like you are NOT completely ready to throw in the towel....As we know and hear that marriage takes work, and alot of sacrifices...I have been married for 10 years to my current husband and we have been through HELL...but yet we have worked through things to save the marriage, and we will continue to do that......as long as we feel we BOTH want to stay in it,,,,

I feel there is no set time to when a divorce is right....Only you know what you are feeling right now, but my advice is maybe try a seperation for awhile,,,my husband and I have done that, and it does make you look at things and to find out if your love is there and strong enough to stay in the marriage,,,someone once told me that it takes 2 pillars to make a stronger foundation,,,and I also have a saying that I go by, and that is NEVER SETTLE FOR ANYTHING LESS THEN YOU CAN GIVE YOURSELF...........I dont mean to sound so phrase happy, but those two phrases that stayed with me...
I feel the best thing for you would be to take a step back and take a break from things,,,work out some details to stay with someone or have your husband stay with someone, however be concrete on HIS responsibilities with the kids....I think he needs to see things more realistic and maybe a trial seperation may do the trick...and once you start that then slowly become friends again,,,go on dates together, and find again what it was that brought you both to falling in love and getting married,,,,,,I think if you just throw in the towel, and dont try this, you will have regrets...and then if things dont work out / and or change for the better on both ends, then maybe you will have to make a decision based on what you are feeling....You will know by that point what decision has to be made,,,Either way it is not going to be easy, but trust in yourself and be strong that whatever the outcome, you are making the right decision.....just try all your avenues first......also, as far a counseling....you have to find the right one, like we have gone through with our marriage,,,its not that we did not want to work at the marriage, it was we did not have the RIGHT tools to fix it, and that is where a good counselor comes in...and i must also suggest you start some counseling on your own, for right now,,,it will be the best thing you can do for yourself...start working on yourself and that will make you stronger for any decisions in the near future.....Sorry, for the long email.....please let me know your thoughts...

Take care,
J.

D., I'm sorry to hear about your current situation. It's never easy to be in that position, especially when children are involved. Have you sought counseling on your own? Maybe that can shed some light on things, whether it be to stay or go. It may help you cope with the situation if you decide to stay or provide support if you decide to go. My thoughts are with you.

L.

Hi D.,

I have a different perspective then some of the others which may bring up some more things to think about. (I know thats all you need right now). I'm not trying to make your decision harder in anyway. It sounds to me that your already a great Mom and are trying to take everything into consideration for you and your children.

When I met my husband he was divorced with a 2 1/2 year old daughter. (My husband is definitely not immature, they were divorced in short, because they butted heads there whole marraige. But are you ready to see him in another relationship and are you ready to let your children be with him or him and her without you?

I have to say I lucked out. I love my step daughter with all my heart, she is my sweetie girl. She is now 9 1/2 years old and we have a wonderful relationship. This is also because her mother was ready for divorce, and accepted that I was going to be part of her daughters life. Now don't get me wrong its not always a bed of roses, but we try to be as civil as possible when needed, and never argue in front of the children.

Which brings up my second view... half brothers and sisters. My husband and I have a 2 1/2 year old son together, I think one of the hardest things to see is how upset the children get when they have to seperate to different houses. My son is constantly asking where his sister is (its just so sad) and I know as he gets older its going to be harder for him and I to deal with. (So not only are you divorcing your husband, but if he gets remarried and has other children it also effects them just as much.

My step daughter is a very sweet, well adjusted 9 year old who is on honor roll, does karate and plays roller hockey.

I hope you are confident with whatever decision you make. The best to you and your family.

Hello D., I know this is the hardest decision of your life but you must think of how you are projecting yourselves to your children. If you answer yes to either of the following questions (I think you will know in your heart it is time). Are you happy? Do you want them to see an angry person all of the time? I was constantly scolding on my older child to pickup his toys because of my misdirected anger towards his father. It is not healthy for children to grow up in a hostile environment. I stayed with my ex husband for about 5 years after I decided it was over for the kids sake and now regret not getting divorced sooner because the children and I have issues regarding the divorce and have been in counseling for about 3 years and my children were 8 and 5 when we finally divorced. I believe that if they were younger when we divorced they would not have the issues of abandonment that they have now. Their father sounds just like my ex. I want to be with my friends and only with the family when I really have to and even then it is a struggle. It will be hard at first but with the help of family and friends (you will really find out who your friends are) you will make it through, but if you do it now I believe it will be easier than waiting till they are older if only by a few years. Best of luck in your decision. K.

you don't have to wait for divorce, just get a place of your own or move him out. pack his things and tell him it is time to go. if he refuses to leave, then find a place for you and the kids. Divorce does not have to happen for a long time. This will break the kids into Mommy and Daddy are having problems that they need to fix before one or the other can go home. Go to court for support and set up visitation and go forward from there. After time has passed the kids will see how much more peaceful and stable thier life is and won't feel so much antimosity toward the divorce if it comes to that. Don't give into him, Stick to your guns. You are teaching your kids to set boundries and to determine that they deserve to be treated better than he is treating his family right now. I know of people who never got divorced -- if you meet Mr Wonderful and he wants to commit, then you can talk to the kids and see how they feel about this and make them a part of the decision. If not, then the opportunity will still be there for thier Daddy to grow up and be an adult. Chances are after this long that will never happen, but miracles do happen.

D. I wish I had left before I did. I stayed for the kids and today I know it was the wrong thing to do. It is not fair to yourself nor the children to hang around or try to make it work when you know it is not going to. Actually it is harder on the kids if you stay.

I knew it was over after being together 10 years and I put myself and the children threw it another 8. You know when it is over when you hate everything he does. Even when he does something nice you hate it. I got to a point I hated life, and wanted to die. You and your children deserve a better life and if you have tried then nothing left then for you to be happy again. It is VERY hard when you decide and you walk out the door or he walks out the door, but after a few months you will say "why did I not do this along time ago" I have no regrets at all, except one why did I not leave earlier.

It was the hardest thing I have ever done but it was worth it for my children and myself. Good luck and be strong you can do and you will be better off.

My husband and I are also going through a rough patch, in contrast therapy does seem to helping us, as well as his level of commitment. However, part of our issue was the amount of time he spent away from home. One of the things that I did was to make more plans for myself outside the home too, then he had times when he had to be home because I was not, OR he had to find a babysitter so he could still go do what he wanted. I also work full time, so I found the best times for me to make plans so he had to be with the kids was the nights that he had to do school/daycare pickups. Re-making my own life helped alot, I began to be a whole person again, not just a mom and wife - and I think both of us missed me. Also, I let him be a kid with the kids, video games, music stuff, etc. I got him to include the kids in on some things that he liked and they have bonded, thus he spends more time with them and us. It may not be things that I wanted the kids involved in (I'm not a big fan of video games) but I had to decide what was more important, letting go of some of my standards so we could remain an intact family ended up being what I needed to do. I think some of the other responses have really asked the right question, do you still love him? Can you picture life without him? I can't say that I know where the point of no return is because I'm not there. And you may have tried these ideas already since you have already been in counseling. If not, then I hope what helped me will also help you. I hope it all works out for you.

you're right in one thing...there's no turning back if you do choose divorce. guys take a long time to grow up, some never do. but if he's not cheating on you, if he's providing for you and the children, then things cannot be that bad. suggest counseling, have a heart to heart talk with him. don't give up just yet. divorce is h*** o* kids. but bad marriage is harder too. if you think this is a bad marriage then find a way out. if it is only him wanting to spend time with his friends, well, find chores for him. don't ask, just tell him. good luck

Being Divorced isn't an easy thing, especially when it comes to children in the Divorce proceedings, you seem very grown up mentally so Im not going to hold back with saying "it's not easy, especially when you have feelings and they will get in the way" Instead of looking at your Hubby as not being grown up, look at the fears that are breaking him down. Then help him change them to create the beautiful relationship you still see and he, throughout all this trauma and financial stress decided not to cope with. Mother's have a special set or instinctive patterns that for most come easy for them (except everyday nonsense), but men, they watch as we suffer through them. That emotional strain causes them to revert to a way of life that will hopefully bring them out of their shells once again. Im not speaking through books, Im speaking through experience of several types of people I've had the opportunity to meet and deal with before and after I Divorced. Once you go through with it.... If he gets hurt....he may not ever come back so be certain that you are absolutely sure you want to break off the relationship with hime.

I didn't read all the replies so maybe some of this will be a repeat.

Is it really him or is it your expectations that are the problem? Do you love him? If you both love each other and it's the expectations that are the problem, just let them go. You don't state his age but if he's close to you in age, he just might not be mature yet. Some men take horribly long to "grow up". Maybe he doesn't know how. Men don't typically respond to counseling. It's a woman's thing.

It's very rough being a single mother with two children. You cannot count on child support. Can you live on your income? What's if you lose your job? If you leave could you handle being on your own, possibly for many years? Very few men will love your children the way even a lousy father does and second marriages involving children often fail too. It's like trading one problem for another.

If you still love him, why not just ignore his failings, let him have his buddies and just have your own friends and keep yourself and the kids busy. Maybe when he sees you're having a great time and not being sad or nagging or fighting he will change his tune. Maybe he's running away because he feels too pressured (immature, I know but I'm just guessing).

Have you written a list of expectations for him? Does he really know what you want? Try putting it in writing instead of talking about it and then ask him what he feels is reasonable about it and what isn't. Maybe he can hire some work out if you're overburdened. Perhaps you can schedule some family time. For example do something like go skating, swimming, have a picnic or whatever thing you might enjoy on a Saturday afternoon and let him go out with his buddies in the evening. Go out with some girlfriends. Sometimes we expect our husbands to be our best friends. While some rare couples have that friendship, most don't. It's vital to have friends outside the marriage too. Don't complain to them. Have FUN with them!

Do you have date nights? You're still very young and he might just feel like you're not having enough fun. Get a babysitter and try and revive things (if you want to save your marriage).

I guess the bottom line is if you both love each other, even a little bit, you can make this work but the desire needs to be there on both parts and your expectations may need to change. We can't always have things our way and you need to meet in the middle. Perhaps you need to be more assertive and arrange for him to look after the kids alone now and again for a few hours.

Hope things work out for the best whatever you decide.

Hi D.,
I think the question to ask is whether you want your children to grow up thinking that they should expect from marriage what they see at home. Which do you think would be worse for them - having the loss of the 2 parents family when it sounds like DH is not all that involved, or to build the same sort of family for themselves one day - if you have daughters, for them to think that they should expect to be the only parent involved, or if you have sons, for them to think that they aren't obligated to parent their children.
It does not sound like your husband is willing to be the husband and father that you want him to be. It's also possible that if you do divorce, he will become a more involved father.
What I will tell you is that if you feel that your marriage is definitely not going to work and you will end up divorced in the long run, do it now when the kids are very little. It does NOT get easier when the kids get older.
Good luck!

If you have to ask whether or not you've crossed that line, then you're not ready.

If he has free time every day/every week/all year long, it's because you're doing more than your share. Many times, if we pick up the slack, the other person is readily willing to drop more. STOP PICKING UP THE SLACK. Make some clear responsibilities for him to take care of and leave them totally under his control. Don't nag, remind, plead, beg, point out, or eventually do it yourself. He needs to take responsibility and you need to drop the control. That's hard to do - believe me I know! If that means the roof leaks or the electric gets shut off for a week - SO BE IT! Don't fix the problem he creates but make yourself and little ones work around it or have another place to go and leave him stuck in the house with no electricity or drips until he does his work. Don't belittle him or berate him, just state you and the kids will be ___________ until he calls saying it's okay to come home because there's a dry, working house. Then THANK HIM for taking such good care of you AND MEAN IT SINCERELY! He knows he goofed - don't rub it in.

If he has free time once a week for an hour or two, there's nothing wrong with that, BUT then you should have the same. Make time with your girl friends, join a club, do something creative or different, take a class - whatever, but get your own free time. Think of it as needing to fix the roof - his responsibility for your free time is his problem. Don't hang around the house or compromise your time out. He'll have to control his responsibility for your absence and you won't be so stressed that he's gone all the time and you're stuck with the kids with no break for you.

Lastly, take time out for both of you together. Remember what it was like dating. Get a sitter for an hour and go with him to his Poker game and socialize with the other wives. Take him to the art exhibit you wanted to show him. See a movie or just eat one hot meal in peace! Take one day a month just for the two of you to get out but do something together. Put it on the calendar and don't let something "come up" where you have to cancel. Hold him accountable for his time with you and your (both) time away. You'll be surprised that he's around so much and it won't bother you when he takes his time away.

As for divorce, I don't like to share my husband, so I went through that hell. If he harms you or the kids, cheats, or leaves you, then you should go through with it to get your lives moving forward again. Other than those reasons, hang in there and keep the communication lines open. Try different things to spark his interest, give him room to make mistakes and accept him for what he is - not for what he's not. He didn't get a book about being a husband or father anymore than you got one on wife/motherhood.

I wish you all the best!

All I can say is that divorcing him is not going to force him to grow up. In fact, he may regress and act out all over the place which given your description of him as immature may very well happen. Then, no matter what you do to try otherwise, your kids will for certain suffer the consequence of that. If it is not his heart to divorce, then there is a piece of him that really wants this to work. You have to trust that and that it doesn't mean he doesn't love you or the kids just b/c he spends his time how he does. I'm not denying that this is a love need of yours that should be met, but it sounds to me like you have to change your approach.

To be honest, I feel a little bad writing all that I've already written and would continue to write because all this aside, I can relate to being in your position. And I know that the last thing I wanted to hear is about how I needed to change. You obviously love your children and I think that some piece of you loves your husband also. As much as it would be great in an ideal world for him to just own his piece and change this hurtful attitude about "his" time and family commitment, that may not happen in the way that you would hope it to.

I've spent years learning about quite a bit as it relates to all these things, both personally for the situation in my own marriage and professionally as a therapist. For now, my biggest reccomendation is to wait on making such a decision. And in the meanwhile, read read and get support for yourself. Specific books I've found helpful; Surrendered Wife (biblically based), Men are from Mars/Women from Venus, Five Love Languages and even "Why men don't listen and women can't read maps." As far as us working together on something, the best has been a Dynamic Marriage workshop. I highly reccomend it (look it up on line). Books that are related to that are "How to have an Affair Proof Marriage" and "Five Steps to Romantic Love." Those groups are not led by "professionals," it is a closed group and definitive start and end (I think 8 weeks?) with very clear directives and goals.

Even IF after all this you end up divorcing, you will have really learned a great deal that will help you in all relationships (not just man/woman). And you will be 1000% confident of the decision, as will he. I doubt it would come to that if you do all this and especially if he joins you with the group stuff, but even if it did you would both come out of it understanding yourselves and each other better and can end the relationship amicably. Best wishes and my heart goes out to you, N.

Please make sure that you have tried your best before you decide it is over. Regrets are very painful. With my divorce, we both made mistakes but my husband could not give up his other woman, he was too much in love with her. Even on the day of the divorce I asked him one last time, can we work on this? He didn't answer - so that was my answer. I wanted my conscience to be clean for that, since I had other regrets, I didn't want that to be one of them. If you start today and give it one month (for a marriage ending, that isn't a lot of time) to live your life with your kids and strive for your own internal happiness, while letting him do what he wants, if he is worth keeping, he will react to the "new you". He may realize that you are willing to allow him his hobbies and his friends, and still step up to the plate and realize that family time is important too. He may not. Then you will have your answer, and you will have peace, knowing that you were the better person, more mature, that gave it that little more time to see if he could realize that his new role in life (a father and husband) does not equal a death sentence and that he can have fun and fulfill his roles by working with you, not against you. I do not advocate staying with someone for years who cannot be mature. I only say that in order to be sure, give it a little time, let him be, and enjoy your kids. If you have already done this, and you know in your heart that he will never come around, then you must free yourself of someone who obviously does not respect you and is not willing to learn what love and respect means. Hope this helps, and I hope if you go through with the divorce, that he doesn't go for joint custody. That is the pain I live with every day, missing my children when they are not with me, and knowing my children are with that other woman, with no sense of morals or kindness. Good luck to you.