Discipline/ Positive Reinforcement Not Working for 3.5 Yr Old

Some children grow out of this and some don't. When my kids get out of control, they go to their rooms until they are ready to behave the way that I expect them to. This stops the fight from escalating immediately. They are told to go at the very first sign of yelling at me or each other. If needed, I carry them there. I refuse to talk about it, just take them away. I tell them, that I am their mother and they will speak to me respectfully in a pleasant tone of voice or they will stay in their rooms. Then I close the door and leave. The family then goes on as normal without them. This shuts the fight down, lets them know that I expect to be respected and will not tolerate anything else, it also removes all of the attention from them. When they are ready to come back, they must be calm and be truly ready to behave or else they go back in their rooms and I don't let them out until I am ready for them (when they have calmed down.) We used this a lot when they were 3-5 yrs., that's when they tend to develop the anger. Now that they are 6 & 8 we don't do it as much, and they seem to calm down much sooner. There were times that my middle daughter trashed her room. I just let her (no attention) when she was finished and ready to come back, she had to clean up the mess. They have yelled at me through the door, I ignored it (no attention). The hardest part is to remain calm yourself and not be provoked into the fight. I'll never forget the first time I heard my oldest daughter yell "I hate you!" It was like a knife through my heart. Now I joke that I'm the meanest mommy in the world, just ask my kids! But my job as their mommy isn't to be their best friend, its to teach them how to function in society as a respectable, productive citizen, and part of that is learning respect and self control. Good luck to you!

My son was big on saying "It's ok. I was done playing with that anyways." One time I asked what he was going to play with next and took that away too and he said "You can take them all away, and the tv. Maybe I just need to stare at the wall" In a very serious yet unaffected voice like staring at the wall would be just ask exciting as playing with his toys. It's frusterating. (He did end up staring at the wall until he grately upset him that day!)
Stick with the same stratagy and never give in. Don't make accpetions to the rules at any time, because then they think sometimes I can do this and sometimes I can't so I might as well try. It DOES get better when you stick to it. Just takes a few weeks to months :( Then one day they are back to being great kids and it was just a phase...a very trying, emotionally wearing phase but yet just a phase.
Someone once told me don't judge your child's behavior on how they behave for you, it's how they behave for others that shows their true light. When she is out in public or with the sitter, shows how good she can be. Kids push parents, they do it to learn the rules. They push people they are very comfortable with (sometimes the sitter if they spend most time there). Keeping very simply yet important rules makes life easier on all. Best of luck!

Oh mi, I feel your pain. I am currently there with my 2yo and 5yo. The biggest problem I have with my 5yo acting out is b.c she really can't help it. We just got her glasses for the first time (horrible vision), found out she can't pass a hearing test in her left ear, & she more than likely has ADHD w/o the hyperactivity (I don't really need the actual test since I won't medicate her) and she has a heart murmor (which I have known since before her birth). My best advice, attend church. It might sound like I am a religious freak, but I really am not. I pack a bookbag of toys for my 2yo and head off to Mass for some peace and quiet so that I can keep my sanity for a few more days.
My biggest problem was my 5yo room. She would dump out all the toys, not clean up, and they would get broken. So I purged her room, got rid of half her toys, she hasn't missed them and it needs done again :(
Our other solution was setting clear expectations, letting her know what they are, what her punishment will be, and Following Through...which is the hardest part and the most important. I tried sticker charts, didn't help to taking all the toys away just made me more stressed out.
Time outs don't really work with my daughter either. So I send her to her room, which hurts her feelings more than anything. She will sit in her room for 15-60 minutes (depending on how long it takes her to settle down) before she can re-join the family. I also know that with my girls if they are tired, their behavior is worse. So, we go to bed early on those nights. Best of Luck, I know that this stage will pass eventually, and it will wear out all of your nerves in the meantime unfortunatly.

The Love and Logic info mentioned before is great. We use it with our kids and it has helped a lot.

Our oldest is almost seven and has had times of serious misbehavior periodically since she was about 3. She has a bad temper and particularly focuses her rage at me.

I have noticed several things about it over the years. First, it gets worse during times of transition and change. It was bad when our youngest was about 6 weeks old (it finally sunk in that she'd be here forever, I guess!) and whenever she has to get ready in a hurry. Second, it is much, much worse when she doesn't get enough sleep. I'm not talking missing two hours of sleep. Even 15 minutes makes a big difference to her. And all-day kindergarten just about killed us all!

I think that the core of this has only come out in the last few months when she started finally being mature enough to verbalize how she feels. She says she feels like we pay more attention to the younger ones and she gets pushed out of the way. She feels like we don't hug and kiss her enough and don't hold her on our laps enough. Now, mind you, she is very prickly at times and runs away from me when I try to do those things, but she doesn't realize that some of the things she is doing push us away. We have focused on REALLY trying to be VERY affectionate with her and it has made a world of difference.

In addition to getting her to bed super-early (7:30 or 8) and me taking her out for a girls' evening once in a while. Just giving her a lot of extra special attention whenever the symptoms arise again.

I've also noticed that when things get stressful in the house and my stress level increases, hers does, too. If I somehow remain calm (and it is NOT easy for me, either), her temper doesn't reach its full capacity. Plus, I try to catch her when she shows the very first sign of beginning to get angry and touch her and say calmly and lovingly, "this is what I've been talking about. I know you can overcome this and react in a better way." That seems to get thru to her, but she is a pretty verbal child and communicates well. I don't know how it would help with others.

That is what has helped me. I hope it helps you, too.

YOU HAVE to keep taking away toys, computer time, play time, play time w/ friends, movies, etc. SHE HAS TO KNOW THERE ARE CONSEQUENCES FOR BAD/POOR BEHAVIOR.

In addition, you HAVE to talk about what's appropriate and what is not. Talk about WAYS things could/should be handled. If you see it in the grocery, on TV, at the park, TALK about it. How did she perceive the child acting poorly? Does she realize others perceive her actions? What kind of girl does she want to be? Snotty? Selfish? Obedient? Kind? YOU HAVE TO TALK ABOUT THESE CHARACTER TRAITS AND WHAT THEY MEAN. HOW can you be obedient? HOw would be a better way to handle the situation where both children want the toy and she hits another? etc. etc.

YOU HAVE TO ENGAGE THEIR MIND ABOUT WHAT THEY ARE DOING. They may not FEEL like being good but you HAVE to teach kids there are consequences - long & short term- for actions, choices and behavior. THINK before you act? How do you want this to effect your relationship with the other person, mom, dad, siblings, God, etc.

It's important to teach kids to DO THE RIGHT THING BECAUSE ITS THE RIGHT THING TO DO. NOT because it's what they WANT to do or what's easy!

SHE IS NOT too young to start learning these values! I used to teach 3 & 4 year olds. I KNOW! Parents were surprised, but you have to bring it down to their level and they WILL get it!

If you are interested in reading any books, try the "Love and Logic" books. www.loveandlogic.com Try saying to her, "oh, when you don't clean up your toys, it really exhausts me, so I am going to throw them away to keep them from being tossed around the room and making a mess." Then YES, you throw away the toys (maybe just one or two to start with) and you don't give it back. The basis is teaching the child all about consequences in a loving and logical way. The consequence needs to be directly related to the behavior issue - ie. you wouldn't throw away a toy because she won't brush her teeth, but you would throw away a toy if she doesn't clean up the toy(s).

Hey Jen.

We are going through much of the same with our two year old. Someone posted on the site about a book called Making the Terrible Two's Terrific, it is a wonderful book that really opened my eyes to the reasons behind her sudden change in behavior and attitiude. Although your daughter is 3, she can still go through the "terrible twos", the book expained that it was more of a generalization than an actual age. I went on halfpricebooks.com and got the book used for $2.75.
Hope this helps!

M.

Jen -- i feel your pain... i have a 22 month old son who is WAY more stubborn than i can take sometimes.

you might want to check this out: loveandlogic.com

this parenting system/theory is based on children learning from the consequences that they create. its an easy read & presented with lots of examples/stories of how to address various behavior problems

good luck!

Try reading some of James Dobson's books. And remember to be consistant. Consistancy is the key to everything. Also, remember progress is the goal, not perfection. Negative behavior should always have a negative consequence. As adults, if we don't pay our electric bill they shut off the power. The electric company doesn't just ignore the non-payment and they don't say "it's ok, you will try harder next time". As parents, our goal is to raise responsible citizens and future parents.

OOOH Jen, been there!!! I don't envy you! I remember when my 4.5 yr old went through this not too long ago. KEEP TRYING, you will find something that works for her.

We tried a lot of things -- but the one thing that does work, is putting her in the corner of the kitchen and we leave the room. We set the timer for 4 minutes, and make her stand in the corner and face it, not outside. She absolutely HATES it and knows that she really did something wrong when she's in there. We tried the positive reinforcement thing, and that did nothing. Taking away toys didn't work then either (although that works now!). I found that disciplining a child takes so much work and it has to adapt and change with the child. She knows that if she goes into the corner, she needs to stop crying before we set the timer. Then, once it's set, if she starts again, the timer starts over. We had one 10 minute time out before she realized how boring that was for her.

Also, make sure shes getting enough sleep. I know when my daughter used to act out and stuff, and even still, she is usually tired. When she is acting out, we tell her that if she can't behave and act right, then she will have to take a nap because she's being nasty and that means she's tired. She doesn't like to feel like a "baby" (in her eyes) so she avoids that nap thing all together, if she can.

Good luck to you -- and just remember that it's a phase and it will get better (lol) :)

Hi Jen,
My gosh I think we have the same daughter! I don't have much advice for you as I'm going through the same thing with mine. She used to be a little angel too until she turned 3. She's 4 & 1/2 now & I can say it does get better and these incidents become less frequent. I bought a great book that has helped us that you may benefit from too called "Transforming the Difficult Child". I'm sorry I don't have much else to give you except for sympathy. I know exactly what you're going through. Hang in there.

"She will yell and cry for a minute or two and then be perfectly accepting of the fact that she lost one of her favorite toys until she can earn it back."

As much as this is going to annoy you, she needs to learn the consequences of her actions. Don't let her earn everything back. (I personally got bad as a teenager when my folks would ground me and when something came up that I really wanted to go to Mom would cave in, or she wouldn't enforce the grounding at all.)

Make sure whatever discipline you do immediately follows the action.... you don't learn that the stove is hot if you only feel the pain hours later.

For the outings, make sure she gets an immediate visual of it being taken away. For example, get a huge calendar to put up on her wall and draw pictures explaining special outings and such, and when she misbehaves, take her to the calendar, explain that you were going to do such and such on that day and mark it out.

Hope this helps!

Hi Jen.

Wow. I have not one shred of advice for you, however I wanted to let you know that your DD and my DS sound like one and the same. My DS is nearing 3.5, as well, and the day he turned 3 was the day this nice, charming boy took on the role of ... well, let's just say, "not-so-nice."

Anyway, I'm hoping that someone replies to you with some magic remedy, since I, too, have reached the point of utter exhaustion. I know my friends just think I'm being overly sensitive to the issue, but much like you, my DS never hit the terrible two's .... so, this behavior has taken me off guard.

I did want to say that I have quickly looked at the link provided by Kim (loveandlogic.com) and have liked what I've read so far. Perhaps the magic answer can be found there.

Well, best of luck. Please post an update if you happen to figure something out! ;-)

M.

My son was awful around 4 years old. Stubborn, stubborn stubborn! Honestly, I think you just have to be consistent, and make what you say stick. (But be very careful about what you say!) Try not to let your daughter get too tired or hungry; that was when our son was worst. There were a couple times we had to lock him in his room for time out. He was just so wound up, and following me from room to room, not staying in time out. The doorknobs for our bedrooms had been reversed by the previous owners so that they locked from the outside. At first we thought that was pretty cruel, but boy did it come in handy! DS would holler and stomp and make an awful mess in his room. (never broke stuff, thank goodness!) Finally he would exhaust himself and fall asleep. When it finally got quiet, I would unlock his door; when he woke, he had to clean up his mess. He only did it a few times, then he figured out I meant what I said.

This will pass, and honestly, you will laugh about it when it's far behind you. Try to remember that stubbornness, when properly applied, is the same thing as persistence.

Hang in there!

Hi Jen,

3 is way tougher than 2, especially w/ girls I say! It was that way w/ my oldest, a girl. 2 was easy, 3 grueling, but she was a dream at 4. I love 4!!

Now I have 3 1/2 yr-old boy/girl twins. SAME thing. 2 not too bad. From 3 to 3 1/2 not that bad either...things shifted at 3 1/2! Time outs, mild spankings, TV time taken away...plus praise shown at the appropriate times. I'm currently trying to figure this out.

It once was no problem for me to take them places, b/c they love to go go go, but just the other day they said to the cashier "Bye bye poop poop" Omigosh!! Instigated by my son, but I made them both apologize since they both said it. In the van, w/ a much-disappointed look on my face, I explained that that type of behavior will keep them homebound for sure!

What I've learned is they like a bit of structure, so their minds don't get frazzled, wondering what comes next in a day. So breakfast, cuddle time (I thought they didn't need that anymore, but when I stopped coming to the computer w/ my coffee and returned to our usual cuddle on the recliner, that helped tremendously), potty time, dress/teeth, inside game or outside...allow for flexibility of course. When big sister comes home from school they all get a snack, then crafts or coloring so I can start supper.

I'm still working on it! I'm looking forward to the glorious age of 4 this Jan!!

~K.

While I can understamd your problem because our oldest sone went through that too all I can say is hang in there because he eventually grew out of it. While our youngest son never did. He went all through school not doing well and we tried possitive enforcement and he would stay I really didn't want that or I knew you would never get it for me so why try. It was so frustrating. I even asked for ideas from teachers and was told maybe your goals are too high for him to achieve. Like turning in homework assignments were too hard to ask. They would probably tell you that you are expecting too much or it's a phase. I would suggest counciling and they do work wonders even at earily ages. I wish we hd of gotten our youngest son counciling at a yound age. He still at 25 pushes all the buttons and drops bombs on us. He was told by a counciler when he was in the early 20's it's all my fault so he has never accepted guilt for anything.

Hello. I feel your pain! My 8 year old is still stubborn but I have found a couple of things that work for him. The first is that we try to give him as many choices as we can without him breaking any rules. For example, if he wants to play on the computer and play x-box. I will tell him he may do one or the other for 1/2 hour. I make it very clear that those are his options and that if he complains, he will do neither but instead can help me fold laundry. This works for two reasons: 1, we are teaching him how to make good choices and learn to think about the consequences BEFORE he does something 2. It gives him some feeling of control (when you are a kid everyone makes all your choices for you so this is a type of freedom for him). Obviously, your daughter is not old enough to help with laundry if she whines or throws a fit but you may want to let her make choices about what activities she does or what snack she has. We just had a baby and it seems to help that we let our son pick out her clothes or what baby food she will have. This way he doesn't feel left out. I guess just try to give her options and be PROACTIVE (explaining the consequences to her possible choices) instead of REACTIVE and just doing something afterward. Maybe a kind of reward chart would work well too. We have a system for our son where he gets "paid" (with fake money) for doing the things he is supposed to like brushing his teeth, helping out, not complaining etc. He thens pays us for rewards like extra snacks, x box time, spending the night at a friends, etc. The things that we would like him to do (like playing outside or playing with his blocks) are free. Everything is assigned a value depending on what we want to see done and how great of a reward it is. For example, brushing his teeth is awarded with $10 but staying on "green" at school is a $25 payout. X-box time is payed for with $25 for a 1/2 hour but an extra (healthy) snack is only $5. Whatever you choose to do, stay firm and consistent. You are doing a great job! God bless!

I don't have any advice, but I wanted to say good for you for not just smacking him and sticking him in his room!