Daughter Being Excluded/ignored at Church

I would teach my daughter to stand up for herself. If Sally steps in front of her then walk around her and join the group, when she says she can not sit there, tell her she is not the boss and she can sit where she wants.

I was your daughter.
I HATED going to church. I was picked on and bullied. I stopped going to church as soon as I turned 18 and moved out. I haven't been to a church since then.
When people ask why I always say, "I HATE the hypocrisy of churches"
It really left a horrible taste in my mouth.
I complained to my parents about these horrible girls all the time and not ONCE did my parents do anything. They liked the church, thought it was great, and told me to ignore the girls, stick up for myself, find other friends.
If you want your daughter to hate church then keep making her go to this one. If you want her to continue going and loving God then I HIGHLY recommend opening your eyes and seeing that this church is NOT a great church. Your daughter is miserable.
Find a new church mama.
L.

ADDED: I wrote what's below before your added that Sally is the pastor's daughter and her mom is the teacher for this group. That is an awful situation. You should not have to leave a church over this but if the mom and dad are (a) in charge and (b) blind to Sally's actions, your choices are more limited. I would try talking with them, and especially telling the mom you are talking to her in her capacity as the teacher for this group and hope she can hear you out. Maybe mom can be quite objective and actually help here if an adult like you approaches her coolly. But if it doesn't work, you may need to separate your child from Sally. This is not school where there are fewer chances to keep them apart; you can indeed try another church at least temporarily. I say that as someone who is very attached to our own church, but God doesn't want your kid being bullied.....Consider visiting elsewhere through what's left of the school year and through the summer at least. Your daughter will end up with a terrible feeling about church if this continues. But if you leave, yes, DO tell the pastor and his wife why--calmly and kindly but tell them "We need to separate Daughter from Sally, frankly. Church is no longer a positive experience for Daughter at all, and when a child is crying after church--we believe that is not healthy for her and does not allow her to focus on the real reasons for being in church. So we are going to find another environment where Daughter is not upset by coming to church. We did try to work this out but there comes a time when parents have to remove a child from the situation and stop continuing to work out things that aren't being worked on from both sides."

ORIGINAL: Sally is a "queen bee." Please read the book "Queen Bees and Wannabes." It will help you see what Sally's up to and why other "nice" girls will follow her lead and it will help you help your daughter a lot. It's mostly about older girls but it truly does apply as young as 9.

Definitely, if there are staff members who are the children's or youth group leaders -- adults whom both girls know and respect, or at least must listen to (because I don't know if Sally is into respecting anyone much....), then talk directly to those adult leaders/teachers ASAP. Do not do it when any other kids including your own are present and be sure you do it when the leader(s) have time to talk -- don't just catch them at the doorway as you pick up your daughter from an event, for instance. They need to know exactly what you told us here --in fact, I would take your post along as a kind of script, so that you don't forget details or leave out an example.

Be calm, be collected, be prepared and don't make it seem that you are coming down h*** o* Sally (much as you might feel she deserves that). The group leaders have to be fair to all kids. But I would almost wager that if they are at all good, they're going to have noticed this already. Or maybe last year another girl was Sally scapegoat and now it's your kid. If somehow these leaders/teachers seem baffled and say, "But Sally's so sweet" or "We just don't see that going on," you need to be firm and stick to your guns: "I am watching Sally and my daughter closely when they're together, even if I'm not directly working with them, and I do see this, and I can tell that Sally is flying under the radar here. When adults are close enough to really hear she doesn't do this--which indicates she knows she should not be doing it in the first place.

Ask them to give additional attention to times such as when the kids are gathering to sit for an event; when they are lining up to play a game, when they are in groups just chatting, and to be more present at those times. They may need to do some directing: "For this game, everyone who has a birthday in March goes first, everyone with a birthday goes second" or they have kids guess a random number in order to get their places in line, or they assign some seating for a while. Some parents on here will cry that doing that is micromanagement, kids have to work it all out on their own etc. but that is just not true -- as a Girl Scout leader and a frequent volunteer in schools, I know that it's perfectly OK to nip the bossy girl's ways, or break up pairs or cliques of always-together kids, by using techniques to assign partners or seats in certain ways. It IS fine, especially at age nine, when a kid is old enough to know she's being excluded but not quite equipped yet to know how to handle it herself.

If the leaders won't get involved, tell them clearly that you will be talking to the pastor or whoever's over their heads. They need to see that queen bees do exist even in a lovely place like church. Don't call Sally that to their faces (they will consider you biased if you do, true though it is)....

You also can work with your daughter at home on role-playing. You be Sally and do the things you know sally does and says, and help your child assert herself. Let her come up with scripted responses and practice them a lot. Sally steps in front of her and turns her back on her to shut her out physically from the group she's with? Your child says clearly and firmly, "Sorry, Sally, maybe you didn't see I was standing here?" and moves around her--not pushing in front or Sally's going to whine that "She pushed me" but getting next to Mary etc. and continuing her conversation. And so on. When the time comes for games, your daughter has to learn to say, "Nope, I'm right here and I'm fine right here" and not move when told to.

The school counselor could be a good resource for both the school and church exclusion. Ask the counselor to show your daughter ways and things to say to show she does not stand for this treatment.

I'm sorry this girl is at both church AND school. Does your child have other activiites besides those, where she is not around Sally and can be more relaxed?

How close a friend is Sally's mom? You say she probably wont' listen if you tell her what's up. Again, the school counselor can talk to YOU and not just your child, so ask the counselor's thoughts on approaching the mom. That can work or it can backfire badly -- you need to decide for yourself but the counselor may have ideas.

I'm really sorry about this. If Sally weren't the pastor's daughter, I'd say to go see the pastor about it.

If I were you, I'd go to another church instead. If the pastor calls and asks why you aren't coming anymore, THEN gently tell him why. He needs to know why he loses parishoners, IF he asks. If another church member calls, tell them that your reason for leaving is something you would only discuss with the pastor.

If he is a decent parent, and worth his salt as shepherd of his flock, he will do something about his daughter instead of blaming it on you and your daughter. If he doesn't, then the apple doesn't fall far from the tree...

I feel really sorry for your daughter after reading your post. Haven't read through all the responses but I would definitely bring it up to the parents, even more so since the father is the pastor and the mother the teacher...can they REALLY be that oblivious to the situation??? Your daughter shouldn't have to be stuck in this situation any longer- hopefully the parents will be helpful but if not, I'd leave and find a new church for the sake of my daughter.

A couple of years ago we were invited to attend a kids/parents group at another church- I brought my kids a few times with an open mind and while everyone seemed "oh so nice" I noticed these girls always being really snotty to my boys right in front of the mom- my kids are way too sweet to have to put up with that. We left and never looked back, we have plenty of places to spend time around truly nice people.

My 26-year-old daughter was bullied like this at church by two girls. To this day she still hates the thought of them, and is just waiting for karma to get them back. So am I. Their parents were leaders in the church who had been there longer than we had, so I never said anything. But looking back I think I probably should have. It's just hard because sometimes that can backfire. I had that happen at school.

For all the parents who say to teach your daughter to stand up for herself..... I say they haven't had a child in this situation. It is very hard to stick up for yourself and push your way into a group that's excluding you if that's not your nature. It's next to impossible. My daughter could never do it. She's nice and polite and quiet. Those kinds of girls get stepped on all the time.

I think you have to say something to the mom since she is the kids group leader. If you were the mom of a bully, wouldn't you want to know?? I sure would.

Hugs to you because I know how hard this is. Especially at church, where everybody should feel welcome and loved. Mean girls are ugly, inside and out.

Sounds like Sally is used to being important as the pastor's kid. If you are friends with Sally's mom, would be worth pointing out to her.

You can also do things like teach your child to assert herself vs just let Sally stand in the way. "No, actually, why don't YOU go sit with the boys? I'm going to sit here." Or "Excuse me, I was talking to Mary. You are being rude." Or "No, Sally, I was here. You go to the back of the line." It is hard for kids to do that, but I'd encourage her to try.

If it is really bad, I might also look for another church with a different youth program. It might be worthwhile to see what else is in the area that would benefit your kid. Without Sally. And if you are at that point, tell the pastor WHY.

When you say you are in a school group with Sally, is she part of a homeschool co-op? I'd definitely talk to the mom if Sally causes your daughter problems every single day. Bullying should not be tolerated and if you are your child's teacher, you can intervene when her classmate is bullying her. You didn't say how it works with the school group, but you can say, "Sally, Mary and Jane are doing their lab now. Please go somewhere else."

You can reply by adding to your "so what happened".

And this IS bullying: http://www.stopbullying.gov/what-is-bullying/

"Bullying is unwanted, aggressive behavior among school aged children that involves a real or perceived power imbalance. The behavior is repeated, or has the potential to be repeated, over time. Bullying includes actions such as making threats, spreading rumors, attacking someone physically or verbally, and excluding someone from a group on purpose."

ETA: What about bringing up to the school group that you should all do a bit of teaching on bullying and how to combat it and have positive relationships? Maybe teach kids like your DD *AND* kids like Sally.

I'm so sorry she is going through this, these stories just break my heart. And unfortunately, it is bullying, especially due to the 'power difference' with one girl being the preacher's daughter.

I love the replies so far, and I would do some of each! I do think you should role play some scenarios with your daughter so she can start learning and practicing being assertive. Whether at church or at school, there is always another Sally around the corner. You will be doing her a huge favor to teach her to stand up for herself now.

But I think it's also fine to bring this to the attention of church staff. Not just in a 'she's picking on my kid way', but 'there are some issues between the kids and exclusion going on, how can we make this better.' I don't know how Sally's mom will take a direct complaint, pretty iffy. But just saying we need to combat some issues going on might be a start. If you need to speak up for your daughter, then go ahead. It's also important for your daughter to learn that you have her back. Good luck, hugs to you both.

So sorry she is going through this. Since she is the Pastor's kid, it will be hard to change things.

Is there a way to plan an activity with some of the girls that do like your daughter, without including Sally?

Perhaps you need to consider changing churches as this one, while it seems great, is not a good environment for her. If the Pastor asks why you are changing, then just tell him that his daughter excludes your daughter from youth group.

Soooo... the mean girl is the pastor's daughter, and her parents do not see that she's the mean girl? I think if the pastor has done such a poor job of teaching his daughter how to be a good Christian, how good could he possibly be at his job? I mean, really. This is not a wonderful church. Find another where the pastor's family is better able to walk the walk.

I agree this IS bullying.
If a kid can't expect acceptance at a church, where can she?
Find a new church. There's no Holy Spirit there.

I would teach your daughter to stand up for herself. For example, when this girl tells your daughter she can't sit with them your daughter should absolutely say, I can sit wherever I want to, you aren't my boss.
Until she stands up for herself she will continue to be victimized, and it will get worse as she gets older. Meek children are easily and often preyed upon by bigger, more aggressive kids. Don't let your daughter be meek.
I would also get the church youth leaders/Sunday school teachers involved, just give them a heads up and ask them to keep an eye on things. It's good to have an objective third party monitoring the situation, rather than trying to confront the other mother yourself.
ETA: sounds like the bratty preacher's daughter, yikes, I know EXACLY what that's like, especially in a small congregation. Good luck with that :-(

I'm with Doris.
I would first go to the Pastor & tell him & his wife what is going on.
Just because she is at church or church camp does not mean bullying does not go on.
It is everywhere! Schools, corporate America, political offices, police forces etc.
Say something to the Pastor to see if they correct it.
If not, move churches. No reason your daughter has to suffer there. That is not God-like at all!

Updated

I'm with Doris.
I would first go to the Pastor & tell him & his wife what is going on.
Just because she is at church or church camp does not mean bullying does not go on.
It is everywhere! Schools, corporate America, political offices, police forces etc.
Say something to the Pastor to see if they correct it.
If not, move churches. No reason your daughter has to suffer there. That is not God-like at all!

What you are describing is not necessarily "bullying". The term "bully" is thrown around WAY too freely.

You are describing normal conflicts between girls that starts around that age and goes on throughout life. Your daughter will be around mean and not so nice girls all of her life... college, work force, neighborhood, church, etc.

Our daughter has been on the receiving end of the conflicts, most especially in cheer when she was selected by coaches and teachers as the Captain. When the girl who wanted Captain didn't get it, she rebelled and did her best to make my daughter's life hell.

Thank GOD our daughter had martial arts training and she stood up to the girls. The coaches give the Captain a lot of power and when the mean girl and her cohorts rebelled... they sat out a couple of games for disrespecting the Captain and for safety reasons because in cheer you HAVE to work together or someone can get hurt badly. In the end, everyone was respectful of each other but it was a hard road for a while. Those girls do respect my daughter now because she is not afraid to get in your face if needed to demand respect.

Empower your daughter so she learns to speak up and stand up for herself because you will not always be there to fix it.

The sad part on your end is that the main issue is the preacher and teacher's child.

Don't think for a minute that this girl's parents don't see what she is doing . They don't admit what she is doing and if you go to them about it they will deny it and end up making you feel like your daughter is the issue. Your daughter needs to be in charge of putting this girl in her place.

Read the book Queen Bees and Wanna Bees. We read that together and it helps you understand some of the mentality of the mean girls and where they are coming from in their head.

Good luck, I know it is tough but you can get through it!

Religious communities aren't immune to this type of behavior (after all, they are made up of humans, not angels), but I'm sorry to hear that this is where your daughter is being bullied.
This is the perfect situation to show these girls how to be the "Body of Christ". (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAWeHo8E70E&feature=kp) They need to work on being inclusive and welcoming to everyone (not just your daughter) as part of a youth group ministry program. There are some great non-denomination programs online.
Sadly, young people often emulate what they see their respected elders do in social situations. If the adults are excluding church or community members (the unmarried mom, the former addict, etc), the kids probably think that it's ok to exclude who they want.

Normally I would say to involve the minister and say that your daughter needs a little help being integrated fully, and maybe his daughter could take yours under her wing.

But then you add that this child IS the daughter of the pastor! So you have a problem with her throwing her weight around simply because of who she is? She thinks she's the leader of the flock?

I still think you could go to the pastor. You could ask his permission to go directly to his daughter and ask her to work her magic with the other girls. Knowing that church (and religion in general) is about welcoming the stranger and making everyone feel included, you just know she's the kind of girl you can count on to step up for any girls feeling excluded. Let her know you'll be watching her and holding her up as an example for all the other girls to follow! Then make yourself very present with a big smile on your face. If you want to protect your own daughter, you could say that, in many schools and churches, there are kids who EXclude others, and that you've heard this church emphasized INcluding them. Does she think that's true, and if so, what does she do that she would recommend other kids her age do?

I'd also double check to be sure your own daughter hasn't done something to annoy or alienate the others, even inadvertently. Sally should still be giving her another chance, but just as you say Sally's parents aren't clued in, it's possible that, like all of us parents, you've missed something where your own child is concerned.

You could also take your daughter to the pastor to have her ask him directly what the church teachings are, and how she can fit in better (without naming Sally as the problem). That might put her on his radar.

Finally, consider that perhaps this isn't the church for you if they aren't responsive to your concerns or your daughter's concerns, or if they aren't exemplifying the values and morals you'd expect from a religious community. I'm not sure how it's such a wonderful church where the kids have all made great friends, while your daughter is systematically excluded by the entire group.

I think this is normal kid stuff. My daughter is treated like this by someone who was a good friend of hers and we are on good terms with the parents. We see each other often and the other girl will be nice in front of her parents and bratty when they are not around.

So we thought perhaps we were getting half a story, which we may be. But I have seen the little girl kick her and my daughter tells the teacher when she acts like this. I just tell my daughter to tell the teacher if she is physical with her and otherwise go hang out somewhere else, even if it is to read a book when she acts like this. This behavior doesn't hold its power forever. Add 10 years when they are in college. You cannot kick people when they annoy you and you cannot change colleges because someone upset you. Add 15 years in the work force. We have all likely been on the receiving end of a click when we start a new job. All you can do is hold your own. You can't leave and you can't tell.

The other reasons we feel that it is the individual more so than our daughter is because she plays well with others in her other sports and camps. We just picked her up from a camp and she watched her playing with the other kids and she was having fun, no complaints.

I also recall my daughter telling me that she had to console her friend because she had a bad break up with her group of friends and she was crying. It is likely the same situation. The kids have decided to not include her in their circle of friends any longer.

My belief is, we have to teach our children how to deflect this behavior rather than making an attempt at making others like us or leaving the church/school/group. It is going to happen throughout life and all you can say is, "Whatever".

In fact, I remember one of the parents who is also the leader of the schools PIP program. She has been rude to me for 2.5 years to where I will help out by donating time and she may as well give me the big fat bird. I have gone in to ask her questions and watched her roll her eyes. WHY? I never did anything to this lady. One day I picked up my order of cookie dough and my daughter received a bag of junk for a prize. The ladies son who is my daughters classmate mentioned he wanted this slip stuff in the bag. We got all the way to the car and my daughter said she wanted to go back to give that to him. I allowed her to go back and the mom said no. I raised my voice a bit and said, "Why, she came back in here to give that to him because he wanted it" and what do you know...she is the nicest lady to me from that point on. She waves and smiles every time she sees me. I don't get it, but whatever.

I always teach my kids that may motto is, if you want to be my friend, cool and if not, that's too bad.

This is so h*** o* the kiddo.

I'd make an appointment and talk to the pastor. I'd start the conversation like this.

"Pastor XXX, I need to discuss something with you as "Pastor" but it hits close to home with you. I don't mean to offend or anything but I need your help".

"There is a lot of tension between your daughter and mine. It's to the point we are going to leave this congregation if the girls can't get along".

"When my daughter joins a group she's excluded by her getting in front of her and not letting her join the group."

Then proceed to tell him everything that has been said here.

I'd also back this up with a few videos if possible. If you could stand in the hallway or somewhere out of the way and just video how she interacts with your child. Perhaps that will help the dad find his heart softened towards you and he can face this as a pastor and not as a dad that has a daughter that can do no wrong.

It might be that no one has brought this to his attention before due to his status as pastor...

This sounds like "Sally" needs a little one on one with your daughter. Maybe you can coach your daughter on what to say - perhaps away from the group of kids. Is it possible for you to go there with her and ask Sally out in the hall with your daughter and say, "Sally, my daughter, Jane really loves this church and enjoys your company and the company of the other kids. Is there any way you could include her in your activities? We would both really appreciate it."

If that doesn't work, go to the mom and ask if your dd did something that upset Sally - just say, "She doesn't seem to want to be near Jane and I hope we didn't offend her in any way"
....that ought to do it.

If no adults notice this then I would be considering another church. Does your church have children's groups? See if you can talk to the group leader and propose doing some lessons on kindness. If you google 'teaching kindness in church groups' there are a ton of lesson plans and ideas that come up. There are also group and team building activities that you can team with this. I would make "Sally" work with the kids that she seems to be excluding in particular (if it's not only your daughter). Volunteer to help if needed.
I read a lot to my kids (and they on their own). One book that resonated with my 9 yr old (at the time) was Each Kindness by Jacqueline Woodson. Might be a good book for "Sally" to hear. It opened up a dialogue and we had a good conversation. We also do volunteer activities at home-like making cat beds for a local shelter (these are fleece tie together-like the blankets easy for kids to make with little help) so maybe that could be incorporated into kindness teachings.

My strategy might be a little different. How about inviting Sally over to your house after church one Sunday for lunch/picnic/outing? Then, if things go sour, you can deal with the situation immediately as the supervising adult. Chances are she'll be completely different one-on-one.
Also, if her behavior is horrid, you can address it in front of her and her parents when they come to pick her up.
Sally is probably just jealous of your daughter and this is how she lashes out. Having them get to know each other outside of a group may be all it takes to turn the situation around.

I was a bullied kid because I was obese. With that being said, I would tell the pastor what is taking place and see if he takes care of it on his side. If your daughter is on the shy side (like I was) and has a hard time standing up for herself. I would find another church close by. The pastor's daughter is rude and is getting away with it. Why subject your daughter to this "leader" who is not be appropriate to your child? Church and religion are wonderful...and I believe that the experience there should be equally as positive!

My youngest was getting bullied in the same fashion by a kid at school. I told the teacher. Nothing happened. I told the principal. Nothing happened. The Mom of the bully said, "Not my child..."

My older daughter and her friend heard about this. I found out a month later...My older daughter's friend saw this girl (bully) at the mall. She walked up to the girl and said, "If I hear that you are mean to so and so one more time, I will have a talk with you and it will not be nice." She never bothered my youngest again. I never had to call the school again.

Does she go to school w/ these girls , too?

I actually just read a blog post about this very thing happening to another girl. Here's the link: http://www.mormonmomma.com/index.php/2007/bullying-at-chu...

Basically, it went on because it was tolerated and leaders/other people took it as a joke because they didn't realize kids could be that mean for real. So once it was brought to their attention it was just blatantly shut down. I hope it helps with some ideas for you and your daughter! Good luck.

If she walks up to a group and Sally steps in the way, why can she simply not ignore Sally and speak to the other girls in the group, even if she has to do so around Sally?
So what if Sally sticks her nose up in the air in the hall.
When Sally tells her to go sit with the boys, your daughter needs to plop her butt down right where she wants to.

Being bullied is such torture. I've been there and my kids have been there. I hope you consider finding a new church home for your daughter and dropping out of that school group. Maybe there is a different school group she can join. One idea is for one of the parents to take her to a different church for a while and once you find one she likes, just drop her off and pick her up later. Or alternate which parent takes her.

My daughter was zeroed in on for bullying by one girl at a new school when we moved to a different state. She told all the other kids to avoid her because she had germs. She was only at that school for one semester until I could move her to a different school. My son was bullied in middle school and we tried to work with the teachers, but it didn't help much. For high school we moved him to a small charter school and it was a much better experience.

Good luck!

Suggest that your daughter ask "Sally" why she is treating her so unfairly-it sounds like a clear case of jealousy or severe misperception.

I'm with Doris Day on this 100%.

Preacher's Kid tends to be the ring leader. Anybody who even looks like he/she could upset that will be actively pushed aside. This is Sally's turf. Her daddy's in charge, which means that she is in charge of the kids at her level. Tha'ts just how it goes. Your daughter needs to stand up to her, no matter who she is. Challenge her outright. She will continue to be "in charge" until someone shows her that she's not.

I've read some of your other responses, and they're very good. I, however, do not see the need to go to the pastor with this until other options have been pursued. I might ask another parent if they see what you're seeing, and then you have someone to back you up when you talk to the mother. Some parents get testy when someone else corrects their child and the parent is right there; others have no problem with it. Use your best judgment on that one.

I am so sorry you guys are going through this. Have you involved the youth personnel?? In our church, I would handle it this way and before the end of the hour it would have been rectified. Why are they not handling this?? If you've talked with them about it and it still isn't handled I would approach the parents myself.

You can't win this one. Find a new church.

Please tell your daughter it is NOT her fault and there is nothing wrong with her. Lots of nice, shy kids get targeted. It is ALWAYS the bully's fault.