A Little Saddened by School

To me the fact that your kids LOVE it should be all that matters. I loved school too, even when I had nasty teachers, because I was a good kid and followed the rules and therefore rarely was the object of their derision.
ETA: have you considered the fact that the kids were extra wound up because parents were there? As someone who worked for three years in first grade I can tell you those were absolutely the worst/hardest days because the kids were just bouncing off the walls. I hated it when the parents were there :-(

Some days are worse than others, depending upon the general mood of the kids.

However, I have spent a lot of time in different teachers' classrooms in the past couple of years, and I can tell you that it all depends upon the teacher. In the same school, you can walk into one classroom that is noisy and chaotic, and the next classroom is quiet and well-behaved.

It all depends upon the teacher's classroom management techniques, and to some extent his/her philosophy of teaching. Constant reprimands is a sign of a teacher with poor classroom management techniques.

Hopefully next year your children will get teachers with better classroom management. But if your kids love it and are doing well, I wouldn't worry too much.

2 things:

1 - your kids love it - HUGE
2 - this wasn't a "typical" day - it was completely out of schedule/routine - which, if the class is younger - is REALLY hard for kids to manage.

I do wish recesses were longer/more frequent. But don't judge the whole thing by a bad, out of routine day. Perhaps visit some time when it's a "typical" day and peek in, if you feel the need.

When I stop in to any of my kids classrooms, the kids want to talk to me. I enjoy knowing the children my kids spend time around, so I make it a point to chat to them at lunch or when I am there, if appropriate.

So I'm sure they were more rowdy with you there than when you are not there. However, all of my kids have had great teachers who gained respect from their students in the first few weeks by being firm, consistent, and unwavering with their rules. Sounds like the teachers are overloaded or have too many trouble students in their classrooms.

If your kids are happy though, I'd say it's probably fine when you aren't there.

Try going from teaching just your own kids to teaching a room full of kids from widely varying backgrounds and home situations and see how well you can corral them and keep them all on task.

When I was in school, it wasn't fear of the teacher that kept me in line. It was the knowledge that if I got into trouble at school, I would be in ten times as much trouble when I got home.

I'm right with you. It's the same here except the kids get ONLY 15 MINUTES a day & it's the same w/the snow & inside recess.

It does bother 1 of my children & I have sat in and learned first hand & my heart breaks for all my kids school experiences, school is not the same anymore.

Then the teachers have the gall to take away recess as punishment?!
Vicious cycle if I ever saw one!!

I have always been the champion for public schools in our family...
my husband, not so much. We are currently exploring our options.

~It's only March & I send my kids off everyday to endure chaos & 2 of the 3 are already tapped out on learning & have accomplished all they have to learn for the year. Off the charts on the reading scales for their grades, math is heavy here & both my boys grasped the concepts long ago & now they finish there work & wait...always always always waiting waiting & listening to the rucus all around them...for the next 4 months...

I have to agree with previous posters that being off schedule is huge. Sometimes this is a reason teachers don't want too many volunteers-- the more parents in the classroom, the more chaos, the more kids acting out.

I saw this even with my preschool groups. It is true that some kids who do fine with the teacher act out with their own parents around. Little kids who did well during the preschool day (because we had strong, consistent rules) would get into that dynamic they had with their parents and engage in some attention-getting misbehavior. Plus, if the parent doesn't convey the message to the child that "the teacher is in charge here" on a regular basis, the kid might not know who to pay attention to or how to act.

It may be a situation where the teachers' classroom management skills could be called into question -- I'd probably prefer to call into question the wisdom of having parents observing as a group. I find that I get a better read on my son's classroom and schooltime when I volunteer and I am doing what the kids are focused on, rather than focusing on the kids themselves. When the 'audience' dynamic disappears, kids generally settle down and are more focused.

ETA: I guess I wasn't clear-- and so I assumed there were more parents in the classroom as it was a parents day. You know, classrooms are often busy places where teachers are constantly redirecting kids. If you are dealing with kids who aren't getting a quality breakfast or lunch or good sleep, then you are going to have problems. If you have a parent population which might be less aware of community resources/professional resources for their kids, that's also going to impact the group. Keep in mind that poverty is a cycle- parents who had challenges which went undetected when they were growing up are not going to recognize the need for help when their child has their own challenges-- they are just going to accept their internalized message that "school sucks/school is hard" and figure this is the norm.

I agree, it's hard to see a classroom situation where the teacher is constantly putting out fires. It's also hard to get quality teachers to schools which maybe underserved-- and to stay there. I know you like learning, A., so if you ever get a chance I highly recommend the book "The Essential Conversation: What Parents and Teachers Can Learn From Each Other" by Sarah Lawrence Lightfoot. She shines a light on the issues which effect the people sitting on both sides of the conference table, esp the issues in communication and expectations between the parties.

aw, A.. i hear ya. i was fortunate enough (sort of) to come at it from the other direction- shock at how much time was spent wasted on crowd control at the schools, and moving into the joys of homeschooling.
what you describe is pretty normal, at least from what i saw back in the day. but wow, what a testament to the GREAT start your kids had that they're so relaxed and groovy with it now.
i don't know what the answer is, but i'm sorry you're not able to keep homeschooling. your kids are cool and confident, and they've got a great tuned-in mom. they're going to rock public school, despite its flaws.
khairete
S.

School has not been this way for my grandchildren. My grandson has been in 4 different schools because he's in special ed. in spite of the challenging behaviour of most students the classroom is under control. My oldest who is now in high school s in top schools and her classrooms are well controlled. My youngest is in Headstart. Even at 3 and 4 classrooms are organized.

I have a friend who taught in low income areas. She and her friends complained about rowdy and uncooperative students but they maintained control with the use of consequences. Their classrooms were more chaotic than those that were in more average income areas. The teachers did have a much more challenging time.

The teachers you described very seriously need to learn discipline skills. I would talk with the principal. Approach him by showing empathy for the struggle they're having. Perhaps bring a book on how to discipline wild children. Fay and Cline have written one based on the love and logic focus.

Perhaps you could pay another mom who is home schooling her kids to include yours. I've heard of hiring a home school mom but don't know how that works.

I don't think classes are like that in our school. Sure, some interruptions and teachers have said there's the 90/10 rule. 10% of the kids take 90% of their time. And that is distressing yet I don't think it's as bad as what you saw. I'd try another day and see if it's that bad again. I agree your kids probably would have said something if it's that bad all the time. For us, there are a couple of kids who will get in trouble but it's the minority and I remember it was the same when I was a kid. Kind of offered a nice short break at times so I'm ok with it kind of. Same time, it's a reason I consider private school. I do think school days could be shorter if all kids behaved and listened. But try another day and see. Our teachers do send the kids out to run sometimes btw. My teachers also did that when I was a kid. They knew when we needed it. Do your kids get to go to the gymnasium when it's too cold? 20 min a day total is very short. Our kids get 2 recesses plus some informal ones ad hoc.

A., here's the thing. Kids respond BETTER to positive rather than negative. Having rules that just say "no" and "don't" and always telling kids to stop doing this and that or be quiet is not positive.

Pointing out kids who ARE behaving instead of misbehaving is a better way of managing a class. The table that starts working on a project first gets their name written on the board for points that lead to a reward at the end of the day. If kids need to be called down, they are to go to the board and write their own names in the discipline box. That stops the offending behavior and reminds them that they will have a consequence.

I'm sorry, but I don't think there's anything you can do. They manage the classroom through negative reinforcement.

I will tell you that there is one thing you are forgetting about school. Part of the time spent in school, is spent in line, at lunch, being told where to go, what to do, etc. At home, your kids know the drill. They don't have so much transition time. You don't teach for as many hours either.

I would say that the time spent at school versus home is about equal when it comes to learning time. It's just a lot less chaotic.

When I've been in classrooms either as a parent or as a guest speaker, the kids act differently. I've talked with the teachers who are much more frustrated with redirecting attention and behavior as kids act out when there is someone new to impress or get attention from or whatever. That level of continual reprimand would be exhausting for 7 months so I'm sure that is not a typical day or your children would have noticed it.

I volunteered in my daughter's elementary class on a weekly basis. Her teacher had 17 boys and 6 girls. Her teacher was reprimanded on a regular basis for taking the kids out to walk the track when she felt the boys could no longer stand being in. I admired her ability to teach, hold the class together and take the slack for taking the kids out when she knew they needed to be out. She also told me that when I told her my daughter's education was my responsibility and I was glad she was going to partner with me that in her 25+ years of teaching she had never had a parent express that to her. I learned that a young person in her class that was violent because of things that had happened had more rights in the classroom than my daughter. I don't believe what you saw is unusual. I think our teachers are under tremendous pressure to educate without the resources they desperately need. My niece teaches 6th grade and has been in some situations that would make your skin crawl.

Glad your kids are doing well and enjoying their new school. Glad you're involved and gave them a sturdy foundation.

Blessings!
L.

Aaaaaaand now you know why it's possible to give your kids a superior education at home in 3 hours per day. In public school, they probably spend 2 actual hours on instruction, and 5 hours on discipline. That was exactly what I observed when my kids were in public school, and that was why they received 3+ hours of homework per night, I'm pretty sure. Now that we homeschool, my girls are able to get their work done in record time. You can get a lot done when you don't have to stop and wait for kids to behave every 30 seconds all day long.

Actually, this is not at all normal behavior in our school. The teachers are very strict! Our school uses the traffic light system - green, blue, yellow, red (I guess they thought green, yellow, red was a little too strick. They added blue as a warning, and the kids can move back to green if they've improved their behavior that day.) My oldest is in 2nd grade, and students who are on red serve detention. Detention!?! My grade school didn't do detention until 5th grade!

My boys have not been teh best behaved students in their classes. Our youngest is in kindergarten and has special needs, so we're working with him. Our oldest is a bit ornery and impulsive, but he's improving and I think the high expectations of the teachers has been very good for him.

When I volunteer at the school I'm always impressed with how well behaved the kids are in the hallway when they walk to various activities. They are so quiet and stay in line. I hear teachers jump on poor behavior very quickly. It's very nice to know that they make good behavior a priority.

I have no idea how yum would go about addressing it, but perhaps you could start by talking to you child's teacher about it. If you think this is a situation where the school itself doesn't have high enough standards you could approach a school board member about it.

I wouldn't raise holy hell or anything, but you could talk to someone about how much you'd like to make this improvement.

WAY too much time spent standing on line, waiting for directions, for everyone to be focused at once, etc. I agree!
Not sure the ages of your kids. It gets better as they get older, but I have to say I will never forget my son's FIRST grade teacher and HOW MUCH she got done with those kids in a day AND time for celebrations, recognition, play and free choice activities.
SHE had it going on.
Sad that teachers like that are few and far between.
I honestly feel that there needs to be better procedure for INCREASING the numbers of teachers like that in ALL schools across the country.
The WORST are the ones getting ready to retire (yes, not all, but most) that are SO "over" the joy of teaching.

I volunteer regularly and this sounds extreme or a day when a sub is in the room. My kids' school is the 10/10 (so high ranking). The kids do have a system of getting their name marked (it could be good or bad). Two bad marks in a day gets them in the principals office.

My son's class has 4 known kids who cause the most distractions. Two of the boys I think have a rough home life (grandparent raising while the mother is on drugs and father MIA). The other 2 have a stable home, and they have other siblings who behave, so it is assumed an ADD type issue. Not to say the other kids are perfect, but they follow the rules and are quiet when they are expected to be quiet.

My friend teaches at a school ranked 4/10 and describes her day like your school. She came from a very sheltered background and has raised her kids that way. In my opinion I feel she is too naive to be teaching in a school with kids who need a lot of help.

I think you would have a heart attack if you watched the recess time. It is worse than the classroom. If they had more of the kids from hard homes (mother who parties and leaves kids at relatives) I think the classroom would be worse. There is only so much a teacher can change when the child is not being properly cared for at home.

It has tempted me to home school when I hear about all the wonderful extra curricular activities the home schooled kids are getting. It is obvious that teaching one or two kids the typical school material will get done in a fraction of the time allowing for more creative time or advanced learning.

What Patricia said: Your kids love it and are doing well, and it was not a normal day. Yes, you were the only parent in that one classroom at that particular time, but if there were any other events going on at any point that day because it was parents' day, the kids were revved up and thrown off kilter. I might not judge a classroom based on any special day.

Though your child said it's always like that, bear in mind, kids tend to view any "pipe down" kinds of talk from a teacher as "yelling at us" (even if it's not) and also sometimes turn a few instances of the class being rowdy into the idea that the class IS rowdy by definition and every day is like that all day long. I am not saying your kid isn't being truthful; I'm saying that when I used to ask my daughter, for instance, if the class was loud or disruptive, I learned quickly that the answer didn't always correlate with what went on most of the time -- being a kid, she tended to recall rowdiness (and any shushing by a teacher) as being a bigger deal than it was.

Also, if you delve into it you might find from talking to your child that it's the same few kids every day who have issues, make trouble, can't move on to the next thing, etc. That was the case in my daughter's fifth grade class a few years back. One kid in particular, and two to four others who tended to get inspired by his antics, were the main source of things. I know that the parents did work with this one boy and got him counseling and other help and by the end of the year the boy was much improved. Kids like my daughter, a rule-follower like your kids might be, found this boy frustrating, but it was a good chance for her to learn some patience--and to learn to stand up for herself and speak up when this boy was annoying people to the point they could not do their work! That's one thing to work on with your own kids-- they have a right to a classroom where they can actually work, so practice with them how to respond when their peers are disruptive.

You mention that the school does not use parent volunteers. I assume you mean in the classroom for main subjects? Are your kids somewhere beyond earliest elementary grades? Once kids are past early elementary, about K through 2 or maybe 4, teachers need and want less and less parent involvement directly in the classroom, but that does not mean you can't volunteer in other ways at school and get a very good feel for how things are overall, not just in the classroom. Art, gym, extracurriculars, PTA events and PTA-sponsored, ongoing programs, tutoring during students' free periods, copying in the office, and (my personal favorite which I did for years) volunteering in the library where usually they always need help -- doing a combination of those both gets you known by teachers and the front office, and gives you a larger picture. And yes, try to get to every class event or party that parents are allowed to attend. It's not the same as watching a teacher teaching math or English, but it does give an overall feel for the school and how well or poorly run it is.

Then you'll have a lot more information (and frankly more standing with the teachers and front office) to say something if you feel that there really is a pattern of disruptive kids and teachers who can't quite control them.

Please bear in mind that the teachers have to teach all kinds of kids, from all backgrounds. In my DD's class, there is a boy who is seriously lacking social skills. I talked to the teachers about him when DD was having problems and they said they are working with him. He doesn't know HOW to make friends. Sometimes it is the teacher who cannot control the class. And sometimes it is a matter of 18-25 little people all vying for the same attention. I also agree this was not entirely "typical". They had an audience. It's somewhat like if you take your kid to the restaurant and he's fine and then you take him with a friend and he's showing off and you want to hide under the table.

Frankly, I would rather my sensitive soul daughter not have only "fear in your heart" teachers. They do tell her when she needs to behave, but they also focus on positive rewards instead of just problems and punishments. Your children were calm. Your children were not concerned or bothered. Your children were fine.

I wouldn't say anything unless I saw this a few more times myself, and not just on a party or special event day (all bets are off then, IMO). I would consider that you have more flexibility and a much smaller class size (and adult to student ratio) than these teachers do. I would give them a break for wrangling all these various little people all.day.long. If all those little people are having a bad day? Oy.

It's been hard. Sometimes schools do send kids outside and sometimes they can't. Sometimes they can't because the children do not come to school in proper attire. I used to go out in full snowgear when I was a kid in MN, but there's not a moon boot to be seen today, and we still have snow on the ground. My DD may or may not be outside, and they can't put all 500 kids in the gym at once, so they stagger who does gym time and who does computers, etc. I'm sure the teachers do not prefer indoor recess daily, either.

You are otherwise happy with the school. I would not be unhappy from one day or even a small handful of days. And if you miss the extra activities, look for ones that still fit the schedule. My DD takes an evening dance class because that's the time that works for us.

My kids attend a Catholic school, but I hear this a lot from new families that come to our school from public schools. Some come from the school district I live within (which is low income and not good) and some have come from the neighboring district which is supposed to be top-notch. They all say that there are SO many behavior problems in the public schools and the teachers do nothing but discipline. Things are definitely not like when we were growing up!

I've observed in our school multiple times and I'd say this sounds like it's about the demographics in your school. Although a lot of time is wasted imo in public school I think most of it is by design and not discipline. Ie fundraisers, assemblies, etc

Spring fever is horrible everywhere right now. Talk to the teacher and ask her if that was a normal day but I bet it is for this time of year. Even at church the kids are vibrating in their seats. Once they start to go outside and play again it will be better overall but that's still not much time outside. I'd rather the kids got out at normal time instead of staying over 15-30 minutes just so they can have an extra recess during the day.