Hi Mommas, Long post! I'm sorry!
I have a question about my 5 y.o. DS (Kinder in fall). He was diagnosed as expressive speech delayed a little over a year ago and we have had him in therapy for that. We have known that he was well advanced in math as well as music. At this point he does math easily at end of first grade level. His understanding of musical concepts is easily at that of a 10 year old (these are our observations as well as school district personnel). But he struggled to talk about much of anything until we got him speech therapy and now does awesome. He speaks well with adults interacts, initiates with everyone, including his baby brother. And his verbal testing is showing vast improvement. The CASTLE (for those SLP's out there) put him at a 104 in April compared to a 76 this time last year. He is showing incredible signs of intelligence on a couple of portions of that testing. An example: on the antonym portion of this language test, he was answering questions in the 14 year old range and he scored off the chart for that subtest. Other subtests, especially those concerned with comprehension, were in the average range. He still is working on interaction with his peers and truly struggles with that on a daily basis.
The school psychologist, without testing, has said that he is certain that he is gifted (in the academic sense - i.e. a different way of looking at the world). So, here is my question for momma's with pre-K and/or K kiddos that appear or have been id'd as gifted. Do you see issues with their behavior? My son can sit and speak with me about math until the cows come home. He has perfect pitch and can pick out a note or even a chord and tell me what note(s) are being played (on everything, not just an instrument). He has listened to Music of the Night, for example, and replicated it on the piano after listening to it many times. But, he is so immature it is embarrassing.
I know part of this is the language delay. I know part of it could be asynchronous development and he is just really socially immature. But it s hard to process for me sometimes and I get really angry/frustrated with him. For example, today, at the SLP's office, we were speaking about K teachers next year and DS wanted me to help him do some sort of a jump. I didn't want to be interrupted so I told him to be patient. He started whining and pulling on me and pushing at me. Enough to move my body back and forth. The SLP eventually said "Hey kiddo, how would you like it if I did that to you? Don't do that to your mommy!" That stopped him briefly. But then he started it up again. He kept going until the SLP and I were done and we walked outside and he knew he was in trouble. Stuff like that happens a lot. Not meltdowns but just whiny, crying, bratty stuff. He used to get really angry and would demand that I answer him right then and there. But DH and I have cracked down on him in terms of discipline and, admittedly, a lot fo the behavioral issues are decreasing.
But still, I have problems wrapping my head around how he can be so smart and act so bratty. I don't see other 5 year olds acting like him. But neither do I see other 5 year olds that can do what he can do with music and math (and apparently verbal stuff when he puts his mind to it). I love DS with all of my heart, so I am hoping no one takes my post to mean that I can't stand my kid! He is incredible and awesome. I'm just struggling a bit here.
Do any of your momma's have a kiddo like this? I've visited the SENG website and Hoagies gifted, so I know what the researchers say about this in these kids, but I just want to have some sort of real world support from other momma's with kid's like this. Is this normal for a unique kid like this? How do (did) your kids behave? Were they angels or did they have behavioral issues too as they struggled with the asynchronous development?
Thanks guys! We are disciplining him. That's why he stopped acting like a brat as soon as we got outside because he knew he was in major trouble. But, the immaturity issue is that he can't seem to help himself sometimes. The behavioral has decreased as we have tightened up the discipline. But it is still there much more than it should be. And that is the asynchronous development popping up. I'm just trying to deal with that.
Victoria - Yep, Discipline was very inconsistent in the past. We are reigning him in and definitely wishing we had done it earlier.
Dawn - Thanks for the analogy. Makes sense.
DVMMOM - Exactly what the school psyc said in terms of boredom. DS thinks he should skip K and head to first grade. Seriously. Disciplining him is definitely a challenge - maybe I'll look to a therapist for assistance on ideas.
He might be sort of Asperger's, and then he can't help that he is somewhat socially inappropriate. I've seen some brilliant kids where it is really obvious that their brain just don't comprehend normal social behavior. Try not to be annoyed by this, and enjoy his brilliance!
Sounds like my kiddo.
Have you had him tested for autism? He sounds just like so many i know, plus my own children who are on the spectrum. Better to know early.
Hang in there! :)
Mom, smart and bratty have nothing to do with each other. He's not smart about behavior. He's smart about music and math. Apples and oranges.
Think about it like this. How would you feel if he were over 100 percentile in height, towering over other children, and someone expected him to act like a 10 year old just because he's tall? THAT'S what you are doing, expecting him to be smart about behavior.
I will tell you what I was told about maturity and high IQ's. Sometimes when a child is gifted, there's a big chasm between their intellect and the way they act. Their behavior and maturity is just like any other child. But their intellligence is way over the curve. That chasm can cause behavioral problems down the road.
But that's not your son right now. He's just a little boy and you need to give him the same consequences that other moms give their kids who don't have perfect pitch and can't do higher level math. Watch Supernanny. She does some great stuff with kids. If you feel that won't work, then talk to a child psychologist about how to discipline him.
Dawn
He is 5.
5 years old is very young
They act out, are clingy, and often interrupt their parents
This is normal 5 year old behavior
Therefore, normal discipline should be used.
As for being uber-gifted - that is wonderful - but he is still five. Don't confuse emotional maturity with academic prowess.
Mine, at five, was bored in kindergarten. Well, he was fairly bored through 3rd grade. He was a very young 5 when he entered elementary school, and the emotional immaturity showed. He would get under the classroom tables. The school would call me, he would hear my voice on the phone and pop right back into his chair. It took twice for him to realize that the punishment consequences at home were not worth the time spent under the table.
The great thing is that, at 5, your son doesn't know he is different from other kids. He is just him - a little boy with some amazing skills. Just don't forget to teach him socialization and appropriate behavior to go along with the academic skills.
Give him a hug from me!!!
Curb all the excellerated classes and teach him to be a little boy FIRST. This will only get worse if he thinks just because he is EXTRA bright, the other social graces will be unnecessary. When your kid is obnoxious, you will still love him/her, but you won't always like them and neither will anyone else.
Work on the basics....he's got plenty of time to be a genious.
He'll thank you later.....you and dad will thank yourselves.
Great advice here along the lines of -- he is five in maturity, even if he seems older when he talks to you about math or music. Please recognize, too, that next year he'll be only six in maturity though he may be working at some very high level in math, etc. This is not something that is going to change as quickly as I think you'd like. Only age can change it. My daughter was verbally very mature but I had to learn quickly that I should not expect her to behave in ways that were not in her wheelhouse yet simply because of her age.
I wanted to add: You have spent plenty of time talking to the school psychologist etc. about his giftedness; getting him tested; absorbing his scores; etc. Please, now invest just as much time and energy and effort in educating yourself, and your husband too, about your own expectations for your son and how to control those realistically. You seem to be expecting behavior that is not age-appropriate; you want his behavior to be as precociously mature as his abilities. Please don't set yourselves and your son up for many years of frustration and conflict by having expectations for him that are not realistic.
I really would advise talking to the school psychologist again but saying up front that you are not there to talk at all about HIS scores or his giftedness but only about YOUR expectations as parents. "I get frustrated with his immature behavior. But are my expectations of his behavior too advanced for his age? Am I expecting him to act in ways that he is not ready for yet because he is five, but I expect it because he's advanced in other ways?" And ask for specific strategies both for disciplining him and for tamping down your own heightened expectations of his behavior. The key term here, again, is "age-appropriate."
As for advancing him right into first grade: Be very careful. If he is outstripping everyone academically but is behind emotionally and socially, he will have an extremely difficult time -- not just in first but in the years to follow, because he may remain behind his classmates socially and may have constant social issues that badly affect his attitude toward school. Possibly some combination of regular K with pull-out advanced sessions for math would be a solution if the school will work with you. Or private schooling is another option. But take great care before just advancing him academically without his being mature enough for everything else that goes with being in class with older kids. That's a call you should make not on your own but with a lot of input from his teachers, the teachers who would be getting him in their classrooms the next year, the school counselor, and maybe even an outside child psychologist.
Just because he is gifted doesn't mean he should be without discipline. As a matter of fact, I think discipline is more imperative because kids more advanced in any area of life needs to learn self control earlier than their peers.
I have a friend who daughter suffered some brain damage. She is slow in every single area but art. Her work would bring tears to Rembrandt or Picasso. But that's all she could really do or comprehend in school. But her parents still disciplined her and spankedher when she got out of line, and she turned out just fine. She isn't fully productive but she was never a difficult child either.
Just a thought, he might be autistic. My son just turned 7 and is very high functioning with a high IQ, above the charts on reading and math, music as well and autistic. He does act out and gets whinny, emotional and social, speech, motor skills delays.
It's been very challenging and he's come a long way.
Best of luck and I hope this helps.
M.
Development aside, him pulling on you physically when you are having a conversation with an adult is something you need to address with discipline. He needs to be taught what is appropriate behavior in that sort of circumstance, and he needs to be held accountable for how he behaves.
Like any child, if it is a new situation (or a situation you have been in but he has problems behaving appropriately), then you set out what is expected BEFORE you go. You remind him just before going in. And at the time he offends, you remind him what he is supposed to be doing. After, follow up with appropriate consequences.
Brattiness is not associated with giftedness or asynchronous development, so much as inconsistent discipline.
Just my 2¢.
And no... I never really had issues with my daughter being poorly behaved. But, if her feelings get hurt---they are hurt deeply. She doesn't "do" surface wounds... every hurt is a battle scar with her. Intensity is also a trait associated sometimes with giftedness. But it doesn't mean that you give in and make it "ok" to behave that way. You teach them how to deal with whatever it is.
This is a common issue with gifted kids. I've got a 10 yr old going into the 5th grade that while her peers are into nails and hair and clothes, she still plays pretend. Maturity comes late for these kids. It's a way for them to back off , it's like compensating for the above age knowledge and smarts by having below age maturity.
BUT he is 5. Whiney bratty stuff is what they do.
if he was 7 or 8 and doing that then you'd have major problems.
I'm not all wrapped up in all that gifted labeling. Leave that at the bottom of your list and make sure you are raising a well rounded child that will be an asset to society...and maybe a good husband and father, and a success in life. Sounds like he has been getting away with alot and Mom and Dad aren't on point. Basics...bascis....basics!!!
Just because he is very smart and gifted doesn't mean he isnt still a kinder. His emotions are kinder level and they act up and need to be punished accordingly. What happens is you get use to dealing with someone older when speaking with him and then get shocked when he actually acts his age lol. Unfortunately the school and others will expect him to act older because he talks older which will mean stricter requirements on behavior which in turn will make it harder on him. Give him outputs that let him be his age and have fun and teaching him behaviors as you would any kid his age. Also remember because he is more intelligent he will understand more the emotional reactions of his classmates which will make a rejected harder on him. Be prepared to discuss same.
I admit, this is secondhand, and I am sketchy on the details, but a friend of mine is dealing with the same thing with one of her sons who is the same age. He is apparently gifted, can read at a 5th grade level, can do math at a 2nd to 3rd grade level, but oftentimes acts like a 2 year old - horrible tantrums, can't take no for an answer, or just cooperate and follow the rules "just because". What they were told is that these kids often may be academically and intellectually gifted, but at the same time, are often socially and maturity-wise way behind. They also expect that a lot of it with him is him being bored, since he hasn't even started kindergarten yet and he is way more advanced than the pre-K curriculum he is expected to follow now. And he gets frustrated easily, with less ability to cope with it.
Keep in mind too that all kids act bratty at times - no child is a perfect angel 100% of the time. If you don't see other kids acting this way, you are not seeing them 24 hours a day. I've been told by my daughter's preschool teacher that she is the happiest, most well-adjusted child she has ever seen and yet, she has her moments at home (and elsewhere) where she is having a melt-down and acts like she is losing her mind. She is very strong-willed for sure (as is my friend's son) and life is definitely a challenge at times (she turns 5 in August and will be starting kindergarten and I have no idea if she is "gifted" or not - I do know she is very bright, but no matter what, she doesn't get a "free pass" on her behavior).
Maybe if you could find some kind of support group, that might help. But I also think that just because he is gifted, and may have a reason behind the way he acts, that doesn't make it acceptable. He still needs to be disciplined for the whining, etc. My friend and I have utilized both time-outs, and taking things away, for unacceptable behavior. I would also consult with a behaviorist who has experience dealing with kids like this, who can hopefully help you with the more challenging, day-to-day stuff. He might also have other things going on, like ADHD, possibly, or issues with impulse control. I wish you luck.
I think it is nature's way of keeping gifted kids from 'having it all'.
Looks like you've gotten a lot of good responses and have been studying up on what it means to be the parent of a gifted student. It isn't easy! My oldest (now 17) is gifted but it has been a struggle throughout the years. She is very intelligent but by her sophomore year in high school she was failing some of her classes. She has always struggled with socialization with her peers . . . she has just never been on the same "wave length" as them. She does much better with adults. And she can be mature, yet so immature. Part of the "problem" is that she has a very clear idea of what her chosen career path is . . . she has known since 7th grade. And so, of course, she is very focused on honing the necessary skills (researching and learning on her own), but any class she deems "not necessary" to her chosen career . . . well, she just doesn't bother. She is very artsy -- music, writing, drawing, etc.
It is good that you've gotten ahead of it, talked to all the right people, etc. He could possibly be ADHD/ADD, which is not uncommon in gifted children. I suggest you read the books by Edward M. Hallowell, MD. He himself is ADD and has two ADD children and has worked with ADD children for years. I read his "Superparenting for ADD" and found myself in tears at points because what he described was my daughter!
I don't recommend skipping Kindergarten, especially because of the maturity issue. I have this same dilemma for my 5 year old who will be entering Kindergarten. She hasn't been test yet but already I know she is gifted . . . she is more advanced than her big sister was at the same age. But I know that maturity-wise she is her age and putting her with older children may cause more social issues. Instead, work with your son's school and Kindergarten teacher to ensure he is being given more challenging work. And if that doesn't work . . . then consider putting your son in a private school or perhaps a charter school because they can usually tailor the learning more for individual students. I finally did this withmy 17 year old this past year and wish I had done it sooner, she is doing much better and passing everything with A's and B's and has been able to take dual-credit courses at the community college which is really what she needed . . . to be challenged more!
Please don't be "embarrassed" by your son, and please also know he is not being a "brat." Whatever his social/behavioral issues are, he is struggling with them and the resultant "bratty" behavior is probably not controllable for him. Gtting him the help he needs to learn to better control these behaviors is the smart thing to do.
Good luck, and enjoy your gifted child!
Yes, our 8 yr old son has tested as gifted and is a very smart guy...and yes he also has behavioral issues. He is constantly testing us. He is very reactive (huge reactions to things when he does not get his way). He is very sensitive and emotional. He is very very stubborn. I have read 2 books and one online science paper on gifted children and behavioral issues. It seems these 2 things can go hand in hand. We have learned to be very black and white about the rules of how he can behave and we give him consequences for misbehaving each time (I will say he has improved a lot since age 5). He is so much more work than our other child. He is a lot harder and has been since birth. My husband and I joke together...imagine what it would be like if you got 2 normal children? It would be SO EASY. I guess that's not really a good joke, but I'm happy to have my husband to talk to when I feel completely exhausted from parenting our son. I'd be happy to talk/vent anytime...I need a "difficult/smart kid support group" at times! :)
This does sound very common. I have known a couple of kids who got kicked out of their school's gifted program because of their behavior. One book I read that had good advice for parents of gifted kids was The Survival Guide for Parents of Gifted Kids. You could also look for websites that mention 2e (or twice exceptional) that have info on gifted kids who also have learning disabilities. Some schools or speech therapists will have social skills groups.
My son has Aspergers/ADHD. He has trouble with social skills, sports, and fine motor skills(like writing and tying shoes). He is very good at science and reading, and has an advanced vocabulary. He passed the test for the gifted program in kindergarten, but I had no expectation that he'd be placed in it because of his ADHD behaviors (and the program focuses on math only). So I look for extra things he can do at home like crossword puzzles and science experiments.
My friend took her gifted child to a psychologist who specialized in gifted children. I would look for one of these to help you with your decision. The thing is-he will lead a limited life even with all of his talent if he is this socially disturbed so it is good that you are on top of this.
The important thing to remember about gifted children is that they are still children : ) And intelligence is not a sign of wisdom.
Like all children they need lots of love, structure, control (responsibility) and moms need lots of praying, patience, teaching and giving respect. If you want your child to be like an angel, then you need to teach them like an angel...focus less on academic skills and more on prayer, compassion, love, charity. Grades don't make a great person, love does : )
My kids are gifted in intellect and even more important to remember is that they are all gifted in spirit and that is the most important thing to nurture. It teaches you what to do with what you learn. There are many people in the world who are very intelligent but are not good people and those kinds of people can cause lots of problems in our world.
With that in constant practice I am very blessed to have angels most of the time.
Living Faith May 22
'God Carries Us'
St. Rita of Cascia
Blessed day by day be the Lord,
who bears our burdens; God who is our salvation.
Psalm 68:20
