3-Year-old Doesn't Respond to Punishments/reinforcements

My son hated time out. Hated it. So it was pretty good enforcement tool. It works for my 2 1/2 year old daughter well too. It's also the method used in their preschool, so I was just reinforcing what they were/are learning. There are tons and tons of info on implementing time out, but you have to be consistent.

You may have to come up with something he values more than movies and stickers. You could try positive reinforcement. When he goes potty he gets an m&m or a jelly bean or something (instant gratification). When he behaves and puts toys away he gets a tv show or something he LOVES.

Well first of all, it's not normal to put toys in a trashbag like you did. That's actually cruel. And you're not teaching him anything if it's just a ploy and you didn't actually mean it when you said you would throw away the the toys. And when you DO actually throw the toys away, you are just showing him that you don't value him at all.

How would you feel if someone told you that slamming on your brakes too hard in your car, or forgetting to turn on your turn signal, or other small infractions would result in loss of your car? And then they take your keys away and drive your car away? It's really the same kind of thing.

Your child is a 3 year old. And he is a different personality than your 7 year old. Quite frankly, I'm surprised that his behavior isn't worse.

Stop expecting him to be a carbon copy of your 7 year old. He's his own little person. Go take some parenting classes and learn to deal with your son. The only reason nothing resonates with him is because you have dealt with him in ways that don't work with him, and it's YOUR job to find ways that do work with him. It's not HIS job. It's YOURS.

If you don't change your tune, you're going to have a hellion on your hands.

Dawn

The discipline must relate to the misbehavior. He gets out of bed and you tell him he can't watch Thomas. How is he to learn anything from that? Instead, he he gets out of bed and you put him back to bed. Over and over until he learns that he has to stay in bed. Don't talk to him. Remain calm. Be consistent. Over and over. That teaches him what he's supposed to do.

I suggest that your first child was more sensitive to needing your approval. I wonder if he's "good" because he wants to please you or if he's "good" because he knows that's the right way to behave.

How do you have him put away his toys? He's only 3. He needs you to stay with him and help him put away toys. Over and over until he both learns that this is how to put away toys but also until he's mature enough to stay focused long enough to get the job done. Ignore his use of the word no.

No is a favorite word at this age. It only has power if you give it power. By ignoring it, he learns that saying no doesn't get him what he wants.

I know some parents throw away toys. I don't think that is a good idea. It teaches the child only that toys are expendable. No need to take care of them or even to do what he's told if he's willing to let them go. I suggest instead that you put the toys up and devise a way for him to earn them back.

Perhaps he's not ready to be potty trained yet. Here's a web site that describes behavior that indicates readiness. http://www.babycenter.com/0_potty-training-readiness-chec...

Or perhaps you haven't found his currency/what is important to him. He doesn't care about stickers. Or he doesn't understand stickers if you're combining them with timeouts and other coercive ways to get him to do what you want. I suggest you talk with him, once he's ready to learn, in positive terms, telling him he's a big boy and wouldn't it be great if he could use the potty like big brother and Daddy? Make going to the potty fun. Perhaps read to him while he's sitting. One idea is to have toys with which he can play only while sitting on the potty.

My daughter put her 21 mos old daughter's potty in the play area when she was around 18 mos or so, not expecting her to use it but wanting her to get used to it. My granddaughter played with the potty. She used the top, with the lid down, as a table. Then she would sit on it fully clothed. Then she started taking off her diaper and my daughter would sit her on the toilet. Just this past week, she has peed in the potty twice. She's not close to be trained. She's in the process that may take several week or a month or more.

I suggest reading a couple of books on child development and discipline. One I recommend is 1-2-3 Magic and the other is Parenting with Love and Logic by Foster Kline.

Your 3 yr old isn't the same as your 7 yr old.
You are going to have to find out what works for him - find his currency.
In most respects your 3 yr old sounds like a pretty typical 3 yr old.
It probably seems harder because your first was so easy going.

Honestly I don't remember "punishing" my kids at that age. There was a lot of teaching, reminding and redirecting. We don't hit, we use our words, we keep our food and cup on the table, since you and your brother can't play with that toy nicely I'm putting it away, I don't listen to whining please come back when you're ready to use your regular voice, I understand that you want to watch TV some more but it's time for dinner now, etc. Have you tried that approach? Sometimes the simplest way makes the most sense. Just remain calm and in charge and keep reminding him of what he needs to do. He's only three, and maybe your older one was a quicker learner (plus I bet you had more patience with him, we ALL do when there's only one!)

He is 3, he is not 7. They are not the same child. Discipline is not punishment, it's education. You're used to how your 7 year old behaved. Your younger child is different. Google toddler development and refresh your brain on his age appropriate stuff - he seems typical really. Stop the trashing toys stuff- it's just mean and doesn't actually teach anything. He is 3 and needs help to put toys away. Make it a game, do it with him, show him what you want done. You're going to have to do this over and over because he is 3. He gets out of bed, walk him back to bed - no conversation, punishment, etc, just "back to bed" and walk him back - and you'll probably have to do it over and over. If he throws toys, you say "toys are for playing, not for throwing. This goes away until you know how to play nicely with your toys". Use empathy to teach empathy - he hits his brother, then he doesn't get to play whatever he was playing; tell him hitting is not ok, it hurts. Ask him if he likes it when someone hits him. Does it feel good or does it hurt? how does his brother feel when he hits? Connect him to the behavior, to the natural consequences. Punishment really doesn't teach much of anything.

Check out Love and Logic (loveandlogic.com). Call and see if they have classes/facilitators in your area. It's a great method of parenting using choices, natural consequences, etc. It's a little more work, but it gives the parents and kids more control, and the kids more experience at life skills.

I think you got lucky with your 7 year old. Really.

Your 3 year old sounds so much like mine (and like how my 6 year old was at the time).

If we are successful with putting toys away, it's because we did it together. When he starts hitting or throwing toys, the only thing that really works is to stay on top of it until his mood changes. Sending him to his room helps. It gets him out of the situation and calms him down.

Potty training the two of them was as different as night and day. Neither of my kids would have responded to stickers. (A part of me is always genuinely surprised when I hear people having success with stickers.) My oldest got a toy each time he went potty. They were small (party favors, mostly), but he loved it. I placed a bunch of toys in a see through plastic bin (so that he could see them), and let him pick out a "treasure" each time. He did great and was potty trained in a few days (granted he was almost 4 at the time). My youngest thrives when his life follows a routine. When we started potty training we were home. He did ok, but then we went on a vacation. I was so nervous. He did great! He did great because we kept busy and kept going to the restroom as a family. He does great at daycare and school because there is a predictable routine. When I was off work for a couple of weeks (I teach) he regressed. Now that we're back in school, he's doing great again! Go figure. Potty training has to be his call. I've just kind of accepted the fact that when he has trouble I can either do extra laundry or buy pull-ups.

What do you mean when you say "getting out of bed when he shouldn't?" That's never been something that I've seen as a punishable offense. If it's time to go to bed in the evening, you have to adjust how you approach bedtime. If it's morning but earlier than you'd like, you have to realize that he's had enough sleep. If it's the middle of the night, he needs you. Parenting is a 24/7 thing, and it's not always fun, but sometimes they need us in the middle of the night.

Take the next couple of days to really reflect on things. You'll come up with a few ideas to try that fit his person a little better. Try not to worry too much. He really sounds like a normal 3 year old to me.

Are you spending quality time with him? With big brother around and a long to-do-list (which we all have!), sometimes little ones feel absent from your "special" time with each other. Try to remember that when kids start to misbehave it's usually their way of letting you know that they need to re-connect with YOU. Give him some one on one time, consistently. It may be hard to adjust your schedule and carve out a certain time of day just for him, but it may just be the ticket ;) go for ice cream, the park, or just read books. It would be Mommy and little brother time...his special time with you. :)

3 year old kids are not cognitively ready to respond to concrete punishments like you're doing.

They need instant consequences that only last a few minutes or half an hour. They have no concept of time. Once a toy is gone they forget about it in a few hours and it's like they never had it. So it does't matter if you ground them from toys, they won't think about them past a little while.

So try other stuff. Short term stuff. I can take away the table for 30 minutes and I'll have a little boy who actually will remember to try harder. If I take it away for the whole day by an hour later he's doing the same stuff he was before.

Sounds like a matter of brain development to me, and probably some basic genetic differences between your two little individuals. Your younger son may be a child who needs very concrete learning – a chart may be a bit too abstract for him to find meaningful, especially when he has strong feelings he has to deal with.

Help him find words for his feelings and needs. For example, why is he getting out of bed? What is he trying to accomplish? Most behaviors are in response to a perceived need or desire. If you find out what he's after (companionship, comfort, amusement, a certain toy), or what he's avoiding (loneliness, fear of the dark, etc.) you might be able to tailor rewards and consequences in a way that he'll see the connection to getting (or not getting) his needs met. Also, younger children are usually more immediate and concrete, so a delay of even 20 minutes before a consequence arrives may not make an impression.

When my grandson was that age and trying to get up multiple times a night, his mom gave him a cup with maybe 5 paper "tickets" at bedtime. She'd remove one ticket (or he'd "spend" one ticket) every time he got up. He could use what he had left to buy a special treat (he helped choose) in the morning. He had to have most of the strips left in the morning to buy his treat (decide how many the night before – you may need to start with only ONE left in the morning for him to realize the positive power of those tickets). As he gains experience with success, he'll probably value those tickets more highly, and work harder.

If tickets don't work, and they won't with every child, you may need to keep looking for the currency that he'll value more. But whatever you do, start very small so his successes can be immediate, and consequences happen consistently and quickly.

Bear in mind that he's only three, scarcely more than a baby – his brain is developing at an amazing pace but it still has a LONG way to go. Google terms like "toddler brain development" and "toddler behavior" to find out what's normal – your son probably is completely normal, but there's a big range of normal, including your first son.

I recently read this tidbit in a local publication by Noel Janis-Norton:
"When Consequences Don’t Seem to Work. It’s natural to put our focus on consequences when we’re dealing with a lot of misbehavior. Kids who are more impulsive, sensitive or intense can quickly put parents off-balance so that we’re grasping for some consequence that might make them ‘shape up’.

The trouble is that we can’t rely on consequences to improve behavior. Consequences on their own will not motivate children to want to behave well or to remember to behave well, which is really our ultimate aim. After all, if consequences on their own were effective our prisons would be empty!

One reason consequences may not work is that the focus is all on taking away things or activities from our child. This can make a child with a trickier temperament even more upset and resentful. What I recommend is turning this upside-down and instead of taking away privileges, have your son earn them instead.

Let me explain. Our kids often have a number of things, electronic gadgets, special toys and daily TV or computer time with no strings attached. But every so often, when they keep misbehaving or breaking the rules, we get furious and try to claw back some of these things. By taking things away from our child or threatening to, we hope that he will realize the seriousness of his misbehavior and will be motivated to improve his ways. In fact, what usually happens is that he is outraged because he didn’t know that these goodies were conditional on a certain standard of behavior.

So instead of taking things away, start having him earn those things instead. When we shift our focus from taking away to earning and rewarding, a very effective consequence for misbehavior will simply be that your child has not yet earned a reward.

One family I worked with started giving their son opportunities to earn everything that he wanted and used those things to motivate him. On the weekends, he liked to watch cartoons, so he had several chores he had to do before he could do that. He had to make his bed, help empty the dishwasher, feed the cat and practice piano for 20 minutes. He was so motivated to earn his TV time that he quickly got into the habit of doing all these chores without complaining. Now he’s just in the routine of it.

Most kids are motivated by what I call ‘screen time’ (TV, computer, iPad, etc.). I recommend that whatever time you allow your child to be in front of a screen, that you have him earn that time each day. This will help him keep his focus on following your family’s rules and expectations. If your child values screen time, this is the perfect motivator to use first. If your kids don’t watch TV or play games on the computer, then think about what other things are important to them that they can start earning. "

This hit home with me and some things I was trying to accomplish with my 4-1/2yo son, who could never be motivated by stickers/treats/toys. The first week were things he already does (staying in bed, brushing teeth, feeding dog), then over the next few weeks I added things he needed to improve on (no whining). Now, the chart isn't needed (until the next behavior bump appears!).

This is also something that you do with both of your children. Good luck!

First of all, all kids are different and respond to different stimuli, rewards etc.
Second of all he is only 3 and cannot be compared to the 7 year old.
At all. He does not have his age development yet.
And they are different kids.
Instead of taking the toys away (he doesn't really get that yet even tho
he cried when you put them in the trash), put him in a timeout when he
makes an error. You set a timer. One min per year so set it for 3 mins.
When you are done, go to him at his level & calmly ask him if he knows
why he was in time out. Then give him a hug & let him go back to his
normal play.
It will get better w/age. Don't be overly agressive, be kind but firm.
Stickers most likely won't work for that age.
Instead of thinking of it as punishment, think of it as re-directing their
attention & warranting the behavior you DO want.
It will come. Be patient, kind and consistent in your redirection.
And yes to answer your question, I have had some similar experience.
It will change! It will get better! He's just very young.

You're finding out that all kids are different and what works for one will not work for another.

My best advice for kids this age is short natural consequences, and consistency. He doesn't make the connection between bad night time behavior (I'm not sure what that is.... getting out of bed when he's supposed to go to sleep...?) and taking away toys.

If he's throwing toys, take the toy away and teach him words and safe physical ways to express himself. You don't have to throw the toys away.

He sounds totally normal to me.

so strange that your first child was responsive to these types of actions at 3. maybe he is just very sensitive and caught on quickly to mama's unhappiness at his behavior, and learned from it. is he a very sensitive, intuitive child? i was - and i never remember getting in trouble at all, because i was so scared of my mom's displeasure. i was weird ;)

i truly am thinking your S. child is more "normal".

three year olds don't have the attention span to process "if i misbehave now, tomorrow i won't be able to watch thomas." they don't get it.

really, time outs, in my experience, are the only tried and true, successful method of discipline at this age. look up supernanny and she can show you the proper way to do it.

I am strongly against cookie cutter parenting. Simply because for the most part it does not work. Children are individuals and what may work for one may not necessarily work for another.

It boils down to personalities (and sometimes birth order). Maybe its not that it does not bother him when his trains were in the trash. Maybe he is just the type who accepts his fate. Try switching to taking his trains and making him earn them back one train at a time. It should be easier to loose than earn.

My daughter's teacher is trying the sad facial expressions when my little hellion does something unacceptable.

Looking back at my first born my expectations were so high because she did so well. I felt like I was doing something right, like I was mother of the year when in fact it was just her personality. I did pointed out the bus stop and told her that the people waiting were gypsies waiting for mom and dads to drop off their misbehaved kids so they can take them away. Maybe that worked too well.

Sounds like my 3 year old. Sticker charts do not excite him for potty training like they did with my 4 year old. In fact, the 3 year old really doesn't respond to anything regarding bad behavior like my 4 year old did. I think my 4 year old was "easier". It's like I need a whole new bag of tricks!

Sounds exactly like my husband's brother when he was young/growing up. Nothing the parents did to discipline seemed to phaze him the least. He'd lose toys, priviledges, the use of the TV--and he didn't care. When he was a teenager, he even lost the priviledge of driving the car for an entire year--and didn't care!

I have no idea how his parents handled disciplining his brother. I think it was mostly trial and error. You might want to look into family counseling--or just go yourself--and see if you can gain some insight as to other options. Or look for books on hard to discipline kids (they have got to be out there, because yours isn't the only one!) and see if you can gleam some nuggets of information.

Good luck!

I'll be interested to read the other responses. I have a similar situation, where my older daughter would respond to "consequences", whereas the 2nd one basically laughs at me. For the 2nd, for potty training, instead of stickers I bribed her with M&Ms (one for pee, two for poo). That worked well. It's all about figuring out each child's "trigger spot".

Another discipline idea that was suggested to me, was turning the problem on its head. Instead of "punishing them" when they're not behaving/listening, focus on positive behavior (not the negative behavior). it was suggested to me to make a "listening chain". For every time the child listens right away, they get a paper chain loop added to their chain. When the paper chain gets X long, they get a treat (say a trip to Chuck E Cheese, a toy, something). So in the end is is still bribery, but it is focusing/rewarding them on the good behavior, rather than the bad behavior. Keeps everyone is a better mood too.

Other things we also do are "1, 2, 3", as in the book "1, 2, 3 Magic". Or if my girls aren't asking for something correctly (like "give me milk"), I say "Try Again" and they've learned to ask correctly for it (the first 50 times I probably add to remind them what "Try Again" meant...).

Best of luck! Remember, we're all trying our best, and only you can be his mama. He's meant for you and you're meant for him.

He's three years old. He imitates. He sees anger somewhere. The trains are probably too old for him.

Punish a 3 year old? You have to have an environment/room/whatever for him where he can't "get in trouble." You can't be telling him not to touch this or don't do that all the time.

The 7 year old didn't have a 7 year old brother he had to share Mom and Dad with.

Remember he's 3.

Look over his entire day. Does he get too much sugar? Does he get any caffeine? Does he get a sugary snack to close to bedtime? Does he wrestle with dad before bedtime? Kids need time to wind down after that.

Are his "bad" days when he watches TV/movies instead of active play?

Do you really think a 3 year old understands the concept of a timeout?
I do and I think it's one of dumbest parenting tools known to man and woman.
As for most of the comments, I've never seen so much negativity.

consequences time outs discipline trigger spots negative behavior
and on and on and on.

I did see a glimmer of good parental outlook. "behavior bump"

I am not sure by reading your post, ...at any time did he get those trains back? I had a similar trouble with my son... I was so desperate to get him to behave, I took away the, "most valued toy". After 24 hours I didn't have the heart to throw away $200. worth of trains. So they would come back out with a stern warning that next time they would really go away for good.... I found that I needed to really follow through with my threats for them to have an impact.
Honestly if he misbahaves shortly after time out, he should go right back in to time out as well.... It might mean you waste the better part of an afternoon putting him in and out of time out.
One morre thing I learned is to pick my battles.... Punish for those things that are truley deserving a punishment. For example, like hitting a sibling. for lesser offenses like using potty words for example, tell him you don't approve of those words. If you are punishing for minor infractions, the punnishment not fitting the crime, it will not have much of an impact.
As for potty training, it will happen. I would just get rid of the charts if they are not working. We used potty scotty for my son, which is a doll that pees. Also we threw Cheerios in the potty and played sink the Cherrios or target practice. Bottom line is, he did it when he wanted to at almost 4 years old. I don't think anything I did helped move things along.
Like I said, I am not sure if this is going to help, not getting the entire picture from your post, but I too, had a simliar issue with my youngest. I took a step outside and tried to look at things more objectively and when I changed my methods, it improved. He is 7 now and things are much better. I do, feel in general that it is harder with the 2nd child, because you have less time than you did with the first. Also, I found that I was expecting my 3 year old to behave like my 7 year old... which once I realized what I was doing, objectively, I realized it wasn't fair. Good luck. I remember things being really hard at 3, but now my kids are 7 and 11.... I really miss 3. So hold onto 3 and try to remember your blessings.