11 Year Old with Repeat Bad Behavior

it's a difficult age, and she's got a difficult situation to cope with. i really like that you encourage her to express herself and give her the tools to do so.
and i agree that if the behavior is continuing or worsening you need to find a better coping mechanism. i don't know that i agree that punishments are what she needs.
she should have chores anyway, so just piling more on her won't necessarily make a difference. although i confess to a fondness for hard labor for mouthiness. got a rock wall you need built?
taking away her phone sounds good. taking away all screeny things and having her resort to paper (or actual conversation if she calms down enough to be civil) is an appropriate response.
denying her social activities is also pretty good. i don't agree that the piece de resistance in your bag of tricks should be bed-without-dinner. that's a pretty antiquated punishment. she's not going to starve from missing a meal, but i can't think what it would teach her.
part of this is just YOU understanding that growing up occurs on a continuum. if she's always been a strong, willful person, then that's how she is and your challenge is to help her turn that power and energy into positive channels. that might involve being stern and silent when she melts down, and simply banishing her so you don't have to hear it. since she clearly DOES understand that it's unacceptable, it might take nothing more than time and more maturity for her to get a grip on expressing herself in a more wholesome fashion.
if indeed she's so out of control that you can't deal with her at all (and it doesn't sound as if this is the case- you seem to be no-drama-mama) then it's never a bad idea to get an angry kid a counselor. even if she's not that bad it really couldn't hurt. sometimes a kid just needs a dispassionate ear.
when you're in the thick of it, it does feel like a never-ending cycle, and if you've dealt with it for 11 years then it's time to bring in the big guns. but if this is a tween behavior, then it only FEELS never-ending, and the way you're handing it (sans the dinner thing) is really pretty good. opportunities to let her feelings out, a safe place to do it, and a moratorium on electronics may well be enough to help her work through it, if you can be patient and let your good parenting slowly permeate.
khairete
S.

I think it's great that you encourage her to express herself, and art is one way.

However, she also needs to learn to express herself verbally, since that's where the bad behavior has settled - mouthing off, being bossy or sassy, screaming. So I think you might work on having her express herself with words by writing down what she's feeling, what she said in response, and how those words affect others. There's also a great story (I think it's a Yiddish folk tale) about someone who cuts open a feather pillow and scatters the feathers. The person then has to collect all the scattered feathers and put them back in the pillowcase, and of course cannot do so. The feathers are like words, we're told. They're out there, and you can try to take them back, but you can't - they stay spread out and littering the landscape.

I suggest that your daughter thinks her artwork and apology makes it all okay. It's time to learn that she cannot get away with that. Saying "sorry" doesn't make it all better.

I also think you have too many consequences of too short duration. That's why you're in this ineffective cycle. I'd start with the phone - there is no reason an 11 year old needs one, and it's easily explained as a device for mature and responsible tweens/teens. I also think you can limit time with her friends - but specifically say that you cannot have her out in public or at other kids' homes where she could shoot off her mouth in front of their parents. And in your house, you can't supervise her every action with her friends - you don't have time. Since she isn't mature enough to be left alone with you able to trust her good manners, she can't do that. No trips to the mall or anyplace where she isn't trustworthy or old enough to make good decisions, since she doesn't respect others or your rules or whatever. Keep it simpler than it is right now. And your consequences don't last nearly long enough. She's beating your system. So she needs to lose her phone for a good month - even if it's inconvenient for you when it comes to picking her up from school. She can use the office phone like kids did for decades. Let her experience that for a while.

I'd rethink the "no dinner" thing - there is no reason to restrict her food intake due to her back talk. And it creates a power struggle around food - which you don't want to do, given the "control" aspect of eating disorders. And it kind of says you're willing to jeopardize her health because she's mean. However, I do think, if she should complain or be insulting/sassy about what you have prepared, you can absolutely pack it up and refrigerate it, and let her get her own food (peanut butter & jelly or cereal/milk for supper, whatever she is capable of fixing, never hurt anyone and it has some nutrition). Do not become a short order cook to any child, particularly not a fresh-mouthed one.

One of these days, someone IS going to shut her down - and it will probably be a teacher keeping her after school for being a big mouth. Then you support that teacher 100%. Yes, you have to hope no one will beat her up, but you can't really protect against that. Your best bet is to have her experience immediate, distinct, consistent inconvenient consequences, and not keep throwing a whole bunch of different ones at her, because she's not getting the message.

I also think persistent anger is worth exploring in therapy. Let her find that there are appropriate ways to express her frustration, and tools to help her deal with it more effectively. But therapy cannot be a punishment, and both you and her father have to participate.

I am so sorry you are both going through this. It must be tough on both of you. I'm not sure how much help I can be, but I'll try.

I think consistency is key. it's important to stick with one consequence for awhile is important. Even if one thing (like sending her to her room) didn't work the first time, keep trying it several times. Your daughter is going to test you to see if you're going to stick to your guns and follow through.

I really like your approach of incorporating the use of art in your interactions with her. I'd keep up with that, because that does give her an outlet, even though she doesn't have one at her dad's. I would bet that's where a lot of her anger and outbursts are coming from. She feels safe with you so you get the emotions that are forced to be pent-up at dad's.

Do you have her in counseling at all? If not, you might want to consider. A counselor would help her express herself more appropriately and might give you some pointers as well. I'm not saying you're a bad print, but we all need help sometimes.

I would think twice about sending her to bed without dinner. I think that's just going to add to the problem and just make her angrier. I don't think food should be tied to behavior, you're asking for a whole set of new problems if you do that.

Have you asked your pediatrician for help? The doctor might be able to help give you some support, and cheek to see if there is anything chemical going on.

Good luck. Hope I don't sound too scattered.

Sadly, nipping in the bud is long past! But happily, hope is not lost. I'm all for firm discipline regarding fits, disrespect, tantrums, but after about age 5-7-ish....it's sort of too late to establish those boundaries with firm, swift, consistent discipline. I'm going through an adjustment now with my 7 year old who had a great foundation and great early behavior, and now he's pushing boundaries all kinds of new ways and my gut tells me we need a new and more mature approach...we're working on it.

I'm a painter, my ex is a musician, We are ALL ABOUT expression and feelings and moods and creativity. But you know what? Nope. That's not what anger and disrespectful behavior are about. It's fine to express creative outlets all the time, but as a way to address bad behavior while it's happening, drawing in your room seems like a fun reward rather than a consequence. And then again, consequences stop working so...I hear you.

What do you mean her father doesn't let her express herself? She shows him a painting she's done about something meaningful to her and he says, "I don't want to see you expressing yourself!" She tells him a strong opinion and he says, "You are not allowed to have opinions!!" Or does he not let her act out inappropriately? I have to say I had the strictest military dad on the planet who allowed ZERO bad behavior by penalty of death: and it didn't impede my creativity one bit. It just made me not act badly around him because it wasn't worth the consequences. Also, I have lots of lovely friends who have been all about their kids expressing themselves since birth, and the kids are often terribly mean and unhappy and disrespectful...so it's not necessarily a lack of expression causing this-and I'm sorry if I'm way off base with her relationship with her dad.

As kids get older they need renewed sense of purpose, more responsibility, the rewards thereof, and higher expectations for behavior. For me I know a lot of the behavior I'm dealing with in my son is because I haven't quite made the adjustment to structuring his life for an older child yet..we'll get there. I have to change the routine, allow more freedom, dole more respect, expect more, and use more effective consequences.

For 11 year old-thru teens the show "World's Strictest Parents" you can stream on youtube has excellent examples for handling out of control youths and providing productive environments! And it's fun to watch. Good luck!

Denying a person food is not a natural consequence for anything.

I really like Suz t's answer, it's pretty spot on.
You have to realize that she is 11 (halfway from birth to age 21 basically) a weird spot to be on this planet.
Your reactions to her behavior is the only thing YOU can really control-- I dont believe in kids needing counsellors, I think that gives them a reason to think something is really wrong with them... and when their peers discover they are seeing a counsellor its very embarrassing for them.
Pay attention to her triggers and maybe learn a different way to present things to her that she has no reason to react to.
You sound like a super thoughtful mother. This too shall pass :)

First of all, kids don't usually talk to other people the way they often feel free to talk to their parents, so you probably don't have to worry about that.

What's wrong with continuing to send her to her room? It's a natural and logical consequence. If she's unpleasant to be around, she can be alone in her room. You don't have to make a big deal about it.

When she's not fun to be around, you can just send her to her room, and have her apologize, as you have been doing. I don't see why you have to do any more than that. It solves the problem, doesn't it? She's unpleasant, so she has to go to her room. Then you have peace. Your consequences should really be logical and related.

Since you have the teen years approaching, I wouldn't expect this to get better any time soon. It might get worse. I disagree with making her go without dinner. It's not appropriate or relevant.

Parenting is a process, and some of the more challenging children are not changed overnight. This might be something you have to deal with until she's 18, on some level. Just make it clear that if she's unpleasant, you don't want to be around her. And that's it.

You are describing the way my 11 year old son used to be...EXACTLY. He has been the most strong willed, stubborn, defiant, kid over his lifetime! He once told me after he was through with being super upset and angry over not wanting to do homework one night that there is a part of his brain that knows he should just do it but then there is another part of his brain that feels like if he does it then I WIN AND he would RATHER DIE. Geez. I guess he got the stubborn gene from grandpa. Anyhow...once he started getting so upset that he was saying things like he should have never been born, etc., then I started having him see a child psychiatrist. She is this really cool woman whose specialty is tweens and teens and ODD, anger, defiance, ADHD. She works with him on taking charge of his own behavior and taking responsibility. He has been seeing a therapist now for the last 2 years and oh my god, it has been amazing and so helpful. He likes her a lot and enjoys his sessions...and at times I will meet with the therapist and she advises me. I have learned a lot. And my relationship is SO much better now with my son. So...I have no advice for what punishment will work because nothing punishment-wise worked for me. But I do think you have to change the whole dynamic in your house. For me it was to let go, not worry about things, not try to get my child to do their homework, not nag or remind him, not try to control him. And for him it was to decide to take responsibility himself and make his own decisions, take responsibility for how he treats people and his own behavior, make his own plan on when he would work on things, etc. He's not perfect or anything but our household is so much more calm and most of the time things are 100% better around here. I really recommend this.

I could have written this. Mine is a boy around same age.

Part of it is his personality. He was always like this - but not as mouthy or sassy (I think that has come in part due to hormones) - but he would sort of get testy as a little boy, so I would send him to his room, not to be mean but I could tell he'd had enough. He's a big time introvert so some days if he has not had time for himself (just to read, lego, mindless things to turn off his mind and shut off from the day) he gets worse. Not sure if your daughter is the same - are there things that set her off? My child has a hard time processing stuff - he's not comfortable expressing his feelings. He's a deep thinker. So if he had a rough day at school, lots of interactions and say drama at school, he comes home all frazzled. He walks in the door and outburst right away. So I do the same as I did when he was little - doesn't get to talk to us that way, alone time. The other big thing is outdoor physical time. He's much worse if he's just on a device or watching TV. It's like he has to get the stress out physically.

He's much better if he goes outside and shoot hoops. So some days it's alone time, some days it has to be physical. Then we have our normal child again when he comes inside.

Part of my kids' anger/frustration I think stems a bit from anxiety. He's my more stressed/anxious kid. Some kids express it as frustration (short tempered) I was told by our therapist.

I have never found that punishments helped a great deal. If he's just purely disrespectful, then we remove hockey. Hockey is his one love of life - so if he's really out of hand, he loses his privilege of going to games for a week. He feels then he has let team down, which is much worse than upsetting parents. It makes him realize he's crossed the line. We follow through - even if his behavior improved. He still misses that week's game.

So between alone time, physical activity and losing the biggest thing to him (it can never be removing an electronic say, because he could care less), it's manageable. But I hear you. Mine is super intelligent and stubborn too. Is one of you the same? My child is exactly like his dad. So I personally think it's genetic. His grandfather is the same.

Good luck :) Keep us posted if you find something works