Very Intellegent Son Lying

I don't know that I have the answers, but I have been right where you are... When my very bright kindergartener started telling stories, we were called into the principal's office. She told me then, smart kids are prone to lying because they know they are smart enough to keep the stories straight and avoid getting caught. She was right on the money! My son is now a freshman at college. While I still expect to get something short of the truth from him on occasion, he is getting better. But the truth is, I'm getting better too! He has a very obvious "tell" that I have picked up on. He keeps the stories straight, but he can't keep his left eye from squinting when he's telling a whopper! One other thing you should watch for is drugs. Not that he's doing them now, but a kid who lies might want something more challenging to lie about. Scary, I know. Keep close tabs on him without looking like a spy and with close supervision he may decide it's not worth the effort to deceive you.

Hope this helps!

www.thosecrazybeans.blogspot.com

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Don't know if this will help, but I jst heard the story on NPR a few days ago. Very insightful

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1122...

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I don't have much experience with children lying, but I do have experience with my husband lying (always about little things). Somewhere along the way, he learned to tell "fibs" instead of being honest. I would strongly recommend counseling. Try to get to the real issue and stop it before it becomes a big problem or a lifelong problem.
Good luck and stay strong.

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Wow, I read the article the other poster linked. It is long but great.

My son is a perpetual liar. We read in a parenting book that one strategy is to punish behavior as normal. If the child tells the truth about their behavior instead of telling a lie that they punishment is cut in half. We are using this strategy and it works sometimes. But if nothing else it keeps reinforcing to our son we don't accept telling lies.

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There are several books that may be of help: Unconditional parenting by alfie kohn, smart love by martha heineman pieper and william pieper, how to talk to your children so they will listen and listen so they will learn(really good one). One of the questions you may want to ask is what you are asking of your child? We are all inclined to lay down rules because that is how we want something done but we don't really get to agreement with our family. this will likely mean that a child may try to go around you. lying is pretty normal (even for adults). It can be a little passive agressive. It sounds like when your son doesn't really agree with you, that he doesn't feel comfortable telling you what is on his mind and then having a conversation about it. Good luck.

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Hi G......I mean no disrespect..but...why do you refer to your son's art notebook as his currency? That in of itself...is really odd in my book. I assume his art notebook represents to him...something which represents his artistic abillity......hardly a healthy bargaining chip or barter object......once again...in my book. I won the city art contest in 6th grade and again in high school....had two scholarships to the Art Inst of Chicago..which I turmed down...specifically because I resented the invasive treatment I received from councilors...teachers...and yes even my mother concerning my art and music. All you are going to accomplish..with your tactics...is to alienate your son...from his art...and from you...he is not telling the truth because he no longer considers you a confidant in his personal life....you have betrayed what he holds most dear...his personal freedom to express himself in his own way. If you need to deprive him of something........in order to obtain obediance....commandments as you so quaintly put it.........how about typically grounding him? Old fashioned I admit...might work. Tell him how you feel........talk to him..explain that without trust very little is possible realistically. Then tell him you love him anyway.....but perhaps BOTH of you need to re-enforce trust guidelines....ask him how he might make that happen in your place??? Tell him regardless....that what you say....has to be the law....but tell him you are ALWAYS open to suggestions...once trust has been re-established!!!! Tell him you want to be his friend...but most of all....you will if necessary...at times dismiss the friendship option.....in order to be the parent you know you must be.....Tell him..that to lie.....is an act of cowardice.....so...he needs to work on positive confrontation...in other words...instead of seeking to deceive you.....he must learn the skills necessary...to actually talk out his problems with you...and of course...you might tell him you in turn....are always learning new ways of talking things out with him! Then make him a PBJ..and give him back his art notebook! Regards Jack in Chicago

Somewhere in my recent past I read something about lying. They say lying happens when someone doesn't feel safe in telling the truth. And it doesn't necessarily mean you or I created the unsafe feeling. That person picked it up and lies because they are afraid of the trouble that will ensue. In your son's case it is quite possible he knew he was lying in a particular situation and escaped unharmed so to speak. I think you should put him in extra curricular activities in school, because that is part of the school experience and I do not see how that is a consequence for bad behavior. Your taking the art away was an excellent choice even though he hid it he knew why he was hiding it. I think consequences are good, but one thing I learned with my own little liar (oh yes I had one also) is that he eventually stopped lying with the realization that we are all imperfect human beings and even I have dropped a lamp and broke it and I also tried to say I'm sorry myself to him and in front of him once inawhile. It is amazing when we humble ourselves how humble they feel. And if you are religious I take it Christian, never stop teaching how we are forgiven for all of these sins. Not excused. Forgiven. The other piece of advice I have is to address the actual lie right in the middle of it if it is possible. For example, I see you have the art notebook in your other binder so you will now lose it for x amount of days again instead of it being returned. And do let him be involved with school activities =they are so important.They might actually ease up on the lying because his self esteem will soar. Now then you may use activities based around that activity (the football team's outing to the bowling alley on Sat. for instance) as a consequence.
I'd say discuss this with a school counselor, but since he is a good student you don't necessarily want hovering going on over your son where not needed.
It is never easy to deal with these things and I will be praying for this situation to work out soon!

You may want to check out www.raisinggodlytomatoes.com for an interesting perspective.

G., I feel you, have been in your situation a couple of times. They always warn us of the terrible 2's but never what comes later. I've noticed with my kids (now 27 and 24) that at times it's the whole hormonal changes, but at times, it's the friends too! My son went through this from about 14-18. Yes it takes them a long time to figure things out. But, as a Priest once said to me if you've instilled in him the basics, then they're still there and will hopefully help him sort things out on his own. Because this is also a learning time for him, and if we could find the key to unlock their minds, we'd be set, but, unfortunately, that's very hard to do! What helped me get through this difficult time is to realize it is not your fault. Whatever happens it's on him and he must pay the consequences, so, keep taking things he enjoys away. Like you said he is basically a good inteligent kid, my suggestion is start looking at his friends. Keep your faith and pray and be there for him if he wants to chat. Make sure he knows that he can come to you for whatever reason. It may just be growing pains and pass soon. Sometimes, they act this way to fit in with their peers, sad, but, true, until they figure out what they really want to do with their lives. Good luck.

Hi G.,
I don't have a 5th grader, but I remember being one. Life is hard, and I think when you get into your the jr. high/teen years, you start to get a real sense of that. I think that's why teenagers go through that crazy teen spell. Their bodies are changing, they're adjusting from hormones and what not, puberty, and then trying to figure out who they are. I was a horrible kid! What I remember working the most for me was the fact that my parents always told me to be honest no matter what - it was the most important thing of all. When I got in trouble, we would have to sit at the table and talk about what happened, and there were nights we'd talk it to death and it would go into round two the next day. They were somehow patient with me and kept a strong front - they never backed down. And of course neither did I but I really began to respect them despite what I was doing because they were always there for me and they always would be just as long as I was honest. Now I was going out partying and drinking, which they hated, but they said if I needed them to always call them no matter the time or place, that they would be there for me but they just wanted to know where I was in case something should happen to me (not that they condoned this in the least). I have to say it worked because I would feel guilty when I was out and thought about them and knew they'd be mad but still loved me. I think its a really hard balance to strike (as with all parenting) but if you can keep the lines of communication open, gain respect and establish that he cannot be trusted while he keeps lying, you might be able to turn it around. Those things are key for the teenage years that are coming up. AT the same time, maybe he needs an outlet - he's stressed or pressured or not sure of who he is anymore or something. He's got something going on so try and get in there and just be there for him. I think its totally normal, probably doesn't require counseling unless you really feel strongly about it. Sounds like you're great parents - stay strong, pray on it and it will all work out eventually.

Good luck & HuGS!
K.

YOu do not say whether you have other children in the family...Younger kids? Is it possible that he desreves a little more freedom and less supervision? Are you hovering too much? what are the lies about? If you ask lots of questions about all areas and are into 'punishments' for minor infractions...then he will lie to try not to have his art notebook taken from him...He sounds like a very good kid...How much FUN does your family have together? Sometimes parents are so into running a smooth household that they do not loosen up and relax, joke and have fun times with their children....He needs to know that you accept him even if he is not perfect all the time....maybe he has just forgotten that he did or did not do something and you are labeling him a liar because he is just preoccupied with growing up and doing well in school etc...
Stringent standards put a stressful burden on pre-teens...You want him to be able to come to his parents with any problems and not find comfort from peers or undesirable characters who prey on unhappy kids....
I am a counselor and would venture to say that your family needs counseling...At least try a few visits...
Or get Dr. Phil's book Family First...He is your child and a Child of God...Please love him and trey to understand him....You should be on his side...he has no one else....Help him understand himself better...
I've taught in religious schools and never felt that it was right to start labeling kids as liars etc...Often the natural consequences of a child's action are enough to help him do better...Punishment is not always necessary...
Kids forget...they are not perfect..Would you want to be treated the way that you are treating your son? Are you as perfect as you expect him to be? Don't you sometimes forget to do important things or neglect a chore etc?
Lighten up and laugh a little and let him know that you realize he is doing a great job at school and needs understanding at home...Maybe he just is looking for attention and feels taken for granted since he has been so good at so many things...Do you voice appreciation for what he does right? Good luck and God Bless you all...I will pray for your family, MOM J

Check out Piaget's moral stages. He theorized that kids your son's age base their morals on consequences (black and white) rather than intentions (gray). This may be why the religious "do good" guidance isn't reaching him. And of course he's going to save this behavior for you... he trusts YOU the most, so he wants to learn from you. I believe that he's learning about morals just by your care and concern for his behavior.

This moral stage is a step towards formal operations (problem-solving and decision-making). Perhaps you can read up on this to come up with appropriate discipline and reaching towards the next level. I can't help because my son is 8 years younger :) I just wanted to comment because "age 10" rang a bell with me from my Human Development class. The lecture stuck because I had vivid memories of being 10 and having a very strong sense of justice, black and white only.

It sounds like on the whole, your son is a very bright, good boy. You say yourself that he is getting excellent grades, no complaints from teachers, etc. You don't specifiy what he has been caught 'hiding' only say it was 'things he didn't want you to see'. That could be a LOT of different things- harmless curiosity or something dangerous. Or maybe just something HE was curious about, but thought you might disapprove of.

I am NOT trying to criticize your parenting, but I think it may be useful for you to look at this from another angle. Maybe part of the problem is YOU- not even you specifically, but the fact that you ARE the parents!

5th grade is a pretty normal time for kids to want more privacy and also to want to express their 'private' thoughts in an art journal, etc. Maybe some of these thoughts are embarrassing to your son, or just things he wants to be PRIVATE. That does NOT automatically mean he is trying drugs or other things he should not.

But it is very natural at this age for him to be curious about girls, rock music, etc. and maybe that is something he feels uncomfortable sharing with you. Ask yourself honestly- why do you think that is? Does he assume that you will automatically disapprove or even forbid him from thinking about such things? If so, I think you are doing your son and your family a HUGE disservice.

Remember, curiosity in kids is a GOOD thing- it allows YOU the opportunity to open up a discussion and explain why you think something is ok, or why you don't. Keeping the lines of communication open are critical!!

If you let your child know that you would always like him to come to you with ANY kind of issue or question- even things that might normally be 'taboo' to talk about in your family or church like homosexuality, sex, drugs, whatever- then he is more likely to share his natural questions about such things with you.

If he expects that you will overreact and take things to an extreme- banning his art journal, forbidding him things, refusing to even discuss them- he is MUCH more likely to hide his curiosity from you and to get his information someplace else. Maybe you can suggest he talk to his school guidance counselor or a pastor at church or something like that, if he is not comfortable talking to you about things?

TRUST is a two way street. It sounds like you have always trusted your son to do right in the past and he has not let you down. I believe that you need to give him some more of that trust now. You need to make sure that he knows he can trust you and come to you with his questions without being smashed down.

My answer would be different if you had reported that his grades had suddenly dropped, he had gone through physical changes like not being able to get up for school, had stopped doing homework, had a new crowd of friends you don't know or if teachers were worried about him. But none of those things are happening.

Your son sounds like a good kid. Keep an eye on him, sure. But make sure he knows you still love and trust him to make good decisions and allow him some privacy. It will strengthen your relationship in the future when he is a teen.

Showing him something like this to 'prove' your concern to him sounds a lot like trying to make him feel guilty for even thinking about things. Also, I have to say, I don't think he needs 'Tough Love' just yet. Many of those books and programs are designed for families with kids who are exhibiting really serious behaviors- stealing, drugs, lying to get money or sneak out of the house. I think that to go there at this point with your son would be overreacting. I am just really afraid that attitude will backfire on you!!

Make it BETTER for your son to trust you and confide in you than to lie just to make YOU more comfortable. If you feel awkward or unwilling to talk about things with him- ANYTHING- then go yourself to your pastor or a counselor and get some pointers!! Get comfortable with discussing ANY issue that might come up. Talk to your son and trust in each other! Good luck!