Teachers... How Many Behavior Problems in Your Class??

In my grandson's pre-K class there were over 25 kids. Before Christmas Break the teacher had 1 aid. When break was over the one aid had decided to be a SAHM and there were 2 veteran teacher's aides. They had different duties. One helped the teacher teach and the other one had a couple of boys, including my grandson, that were who she was to manage and keep out of the teachers hair. They were handfuls and she was so busy trying to manage them that she couldn't teach very easily.

So with the 2 aids she had a much better classroom and was able to do very well.

In his head start for the 3 year old program there were a lot of kids. The ones that wanted to stay at Head Start for their 4 year old pre-K program there were 6 that didn't speak English, 7 with some sort of diagnosis such as sensory issues and even some that went to the elementary school program for disabled kids after lunch. Of the 26 kids they had over half of them that had special needs whether it was behavioral or developmental.

From what I've seen in classrooms, there is definitely less discipline than "back in my day." While I sometimes secretly wish some of these kids could be sent to the principal to be whacked on the hands with a ruler, like we were subjected to, and I think teachers of that era had it much easier in a lot of ways, I don't actually think reinstating corporal punishment in schools is a good idea.

But it's tempting.

I have nothing to add: everyone below has adequately addressed all sides of this issue.

I volunteered in a kinder class this year, and i think you might be confusing bad behavior with learning disabilities, and other reasons for behavior issues.

The class I was in had 20 children, very mixed backgrounds, atleast 15 of them would have been eligible for free lunch.
I wasn't supposed to know this but i've been around long enough to connect the dots.
1 kid had a speach IEP so he would talk really loudly and had articulation errors. and he tended to raise the volume and chattiness of what ever group he was in.
1 was flat out oppositional Defiant. and if off meds ( i assume) or off schedule he would lay down on the floor kicking and screaming and have flat out temper tantrums at least once a day.
1 little girl was add and while sweet couldn't follow a 2 step direction to save her life and was all over the room every time you turned your back. was she "bad" ? no but disruptive yes.
1 was not diagnosed but from what i know he displayed alot of asperger tencanies, very very smart but would not interact with the other kids, woud sit and stare at the wall thinking stories in his head instead of working. get every upset if someone else interupped his "thinking". and start yelling disruptively.
3 probably have some sort of learning disability because they still couldnt identify the letters of the alphabet by the end of the year despite being exposed to letters and writing in context, in addition to one on one individual lessons and practice they improved greatly but that was due to a ton of work by the teacher and myself.
I forgot the child that was ESL. who again made great strides but required alot of attention.
and the girl that came to school in the same clothes every day for a week and was too tired to do anything but make puppet shows with her pencil.

not to mention the assorted busybodies and exuberant children that weren't really Problems but occasionally made bad choices that might have required some time to think about their choices and come up with a better plan or talk through a disagreement.

so 9 out of 20 and i counted it as a great group of kids in comparison to the other 4 kinder rooms in the school.

would i call them all "bad kids" not at all, but very very needy and very disruptive. The classroom teacher was wonderful and was very consistent, no nonsense but also bought the one little girl new outfits and a toothbrush. I was only with them for an few hours a week but i know how difficult it was to deal with all their issues and really get down to teaching the content they needed to know.

so to answer your question I believe it is ENTIRELY possible to have half a class have behavior problems, and i bet not all of those problems were identified at screening time resulting in the lopsidedness.

I would also suggest at kindergarten that any needs for special services might not be in place yet or may just be starting to be implimented by May.

too much info, i'm sorry i just feel very passionately that people dont' realize what it is really like.

lol 8kidsdad. I'm 70 and I've heard of the "board of education" but never of the "bored of education." I suppose the board could indicate the child was bored with their education, tho. lol I don't remember anyone actually getting the board applied to their bottom. Yes, it was an option but it was rarely used. My brother was in a K classroom in which the teacher whacked kids on the hands and she was fired. Looking back, I realize my brother may have had a learning disability. I remember him being a difficult child. He was never whacked. Neither were his learning needs addressed.

We live in a different world now than when you were teaching. Corporal punishment will not help a child become interested in education. Only consistent consequences while dealing with the issues that cause the misbehavior; medical and emotional conditions that cause difficulty in learning.

Lisa, it sounds like you're trying to draw conclusions about your son's teachers by comparing other classrooms to his. I suggest that you cannot do that because there are way too many variables that you haven't addressed.

Missing recess does not mean the kid was bad. I suggest that your son is reporting from his limited experience with what is good and bad. His understanding is simplified because of his age. I suggest that if you want to understand about the behavior of students that you talk with the actual teachers you're interested in knowing about.

As Lilly M. has outlined, behavior problems are nearly always caused by a disconnect between abilities and expectations. The kids you described are not bad kids. They are handicapped by their own make up or the environment in which they live. Their needs have to be recognized and addressed. Labeling them as bad is doing everyone a disservice.

First of all, 25 kids is a LOT. Yes, I know that's the reality nowadays, but even 20 kids per class at the school where I only worked as an aide seemed like a lot, so kudos to your kid's teacher!
And shame on 8kidsdad for pulling the old "back in my day" card. Yes, kids were sometimes spanked, but it was very rarely necessary. We had smaller classes, singing and music, art, lots of time outside, and a true half day. It's SO not fair to compare that to today. I was an active, talkative kid. In today's K and 1st grade I probably would have been labeled a "problem" but back in the day I got plenty of time to exert my natural excess energy, and I yet I STILL excelled academically, without ever once being spanked!
I'm sorry your son doesn't like to go to school, that is really sad. It's probably overcrowded and hard for him because he gets very little personal attention or direction.
Is there any way for you to help out, volunteer regularly so you can see first hand what's going on and how you may be able to help?

I'm a 7th grade teacher and if half my class were behavior problems, then the problem lies mostly with me. Classroom management is one of the most difficult but most essential parts of teaching. 25 is a lot for kinder, but in the hands of a skilled teacher, s/he can manage it.

I would also like to share, though, something I say to all my parents at the beginning of the school year.... "If you agree to believe about half of what you kid says goes on in school, I'll believe about half of what he says goes on at home." Remember, kids' perspectives on situations are totally different from the adults involved. Listen to your son, but realize his knowledge of incidents that arise in class is fairly limited.

Please do not think that you are doing the teacher a favor by going to talk to the principal about her! Do not take that advice!

If you want to do her a favor--sit in the claassroom and help manage it or see for yourself how it is run.

Your going to the principal will do nothing more than make your child a target. Principals DO INDEED tell us who talk tot hem. Otherwise, it is hearsay and the union will get on the principals. DO NOT DO IT! I have seen the fallout from that type of tattling!

My daughter teaches seventh grade algebra and says two of her classes are 100% behavior problems. I am saying this only to point out, it depends on the school.

The reason this is important is that to talk to my daughter you would think you have the only good kid in the class. Talk to one of my younger kid's teachers and there is around 2 out of 30.
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I just want to add after looking at this this morning. It is where my daughter teaches and not her ability to teach that drives the high level of behavior issues in her class.

I also want to add that she does lose it with her classes from time to time....because she cares! Most of her peers are chill, because they long since gave up. Which teacher would you want teaching your child?

Lisa, please go talk to the principal about this teacher. She does not know how to manage a classroom. Just the fact that she puts kids' names on the board for misbehavior in KINDER tells me that she doesn't know what she is doing.

She should be giving attention for positive behavior. Instead, all she is focusing on is bad behavior. That never works.

She needs training and help and the principal can get that for her.

You'd be doing her a kindness by talking to the principal about it...

ETA - I stand by what I'm saying about talking to the principal, although a teacher on this thread disagrees with me. You and your child have put up with him not liking school all year. Why NOT talk to the principal? If she isn't doing a good job, she needs training. That's what her boss is for. I teach too, and if my teaching were that poor, I would expect a parent to talk to my boss about it.

It does children no favors to coddle a teacher and let her hide her poor classroom management skills. Believe me, the other teachers know. What will be done for this woman if SOMEONE doesn't talk to her boss? Nothing, and more kids will suffer.

I agree with so many posters in that there is not one specific problem to point the finger at. "Back in the day" there was no such thing as mainstreaming, for sure. I'm certain this affects some of the situation. I do also agree with Diane below... as a former preschool teacher and nanny, in the 20 years I worked with kids, parenting has experienced an enormous shift philosophically. There are a lot of parents out there who are hesitant to give a firm 'no' and a consequence. She's right about the kids without bedtimes or rules at home. One mom told me that she never put her child in time-out because then the child would tantrum. Heck, I had parents who didn't experience enough sense of authority that they could tell their kid "No, you can't wear that to school" or "come back here and clean this up".

Honestly, instead, over the years the conversation went from "how can I teach my child to follow this direction" to "how can I make the teacher adapt to my child's misbehavior that I have chosen to indulge and justify to myself"... sorry, but it's true. When parents are asking me what to tell the teachers about how their kid needs this and that-- when the 'this and that' are things we all *just did*, like following along with the teacher's directions or standing in a line or not hitting, etc.etc. etc. It's utterly ridiculous. I know one parent who wanted to know how to tell her son's upcoming kindergarten teacher that he had a hard time with finishing activities and that she should take a picture of what he was working on when transitions occurred... This is totally why I got out of this sort of work. Even as a nanny, some families wanted me to cook three separate meals for their picky eaters for each mealtime. ugh.

Knowing this, and volunteering in my son's classroom, I can see how a teacher can have so many 'behavior' issues. Maybe there's one boy with impulse control issues, who has a hard time with conflict--- AND there are three other boys who have a dynamic of saying something mean to this child to provoke him (knowing he does not have a lot of impulse control, and I believe there is a clinical issue with that child, although the teacher has never discussed this). Now we have FOUR kids who are more or less misbehaving, one organically, the other three primarily to get this first into trouble. Or the kid whose parents give them lots of validation for being upset. Man! This kid gets upset about every.little.thing. and goes to tell the teachers, expecting them to give him that same attention and validation as mom and dad do-- OR he screams at the other child he's upset with. Or you have two kids that just bring out the worst in each other.

One mom recently asked me why the kindergarten and first grade at the school don't follow Vivian Paley's "You can't say you can't play" philosophy of inclusion. I replied that some of these kids need a break from each other at recess and need to be able to say "NO" to that kid. Instead, some parents want to take that option away and make it all touchy-feely preschool style, where inclusion is encouraged to the point of being forced. (kind of the same "you must invite the whole class to the birthday party" because no one wants their child to experience disappointment-- even if their child is excluded just because they are not actually *friends* with that kid.) At school, they may have a pesty kid in their face for nearly 6 hours a day. Imagine being trapped with a co-worker who behaved this way and then seeing them in the staff room.... you'd be eating lunch in your car on a daily basis.

My son's kindergarten classroom is extremely well-managed. I have a high degree of respect for his teacher and her classroom skills. However, some parents have complained about her expectations for the children and their behavior. They feel that because she is not understanding (read: accommodating) of their child's acting out or misbehavior that she is the problem. Nothing could be further from the truth. However, when a parent allows laxity at home, no rules, bends to what they perceive are their child's 'needs' instead of perceiving them for what they are: desires or proclivities-- then yes, there is conflict. She is trying to teach the kids to get along in first grade, not extend preschool. She would not be doing most of the kids in that group any favors by treating them like they were three and four.... but that is what a few parents would prefer, I am sure.

There are kids who do toe the line and they need a clear choice "you may stop hitting each other or you will both be moved" but they willl shape up quickly; there are dreamy kids like my own son who some days needs extra guidance to complete a simple task--not because they have a clinical issue, they're just in their own heads, and I know that this contributes to more work for the teacher. (and boy, we are working on this at home!) One child dresses inappropriately for school sometimes and needs reminding to keep her sweater on all day to cover up... it's stuff like this that she's addressing constantly.

I'd be frazzled at the end of the day, too, if I was the only person providing clear guidelines and rules in some of these kids lives.

Sorry this was so long-- I just can't see, though, how continuing to blame teachers for what Dawi so eloquently and succinctly pointed out are adult/parent responsibilities which need to be addressed at home as well.... well, it's not progressive in any case.

I wouldn't jump to assume it's the teacher, although I will say that it was inappropriate of her to discuss the dynamics of the class with a parent.
My classroom is a self contained special education class, grades 1-2, and almost all of the kids have some sort of behavioral issues.
The problem with kindergarten is that the placement committee doesn't know these kids. Unless they're coming in with an IEP, the school knows nothing about them. They can be split up more evenly for next year. In kindy, a number of things are going on. There are kids who should have a diagnosis, an IEP, special ed support services, but they don't yet. Also, a lot of kids have not been taught behavior at home that's necessary for school - that they are expected to follow a direction the first time they're asked, that it's not an option not to listen to the teacher or other staff even if they're not expected to listen at home, that there are rules that they must follow even if the rules at home/with mom/with dad are different, that they must speak respectfully, etc.

Don't believe everything that your child tells you happened in school. You'd be amazed at what parents tell us that their kid said and how different it is from reality. We try to extend the same courtesy when the kids tell us about things that happen at home!

Good Morning -
I taught a class three years ago that had 19 of 29 kids on some sort of behavior plan. It was done that way on puropose because I was able to continue effective instruction, even with that many students on plans. It's becoming more and more common, and what often happens is that veteran teachers, who are known for having more patience than others at that grade level, are often given more of these students simply because they are able to discipline the class more effectively. Yes, the teacher may look frazzled at the end of the day, but they take the brunt of it because they are good at what they do. Please do not go to the principal about this, they typically are very aware of what teachers have a heavy load of students with behavior issues, and often times it was done that way for a reason.

The teachers conversation with you about the number of students with behavior problems was in response to your question. As long as no names were used, I really don't see that as a problem either. She was acknowldging your recognition of the issue.

As far as your son not liking to go to school, I don't know that a correalation can be made between that and the other students in the classroom. Did he like going to school at the start of the year? Is your son being successful with his learning? He may just be ready to be done with kinder and move forward? I would be sure to focus your conversations with him about what was fun and positive at school, rather than what Billy or Sally did. He may be focusing on the negative because you are? Just a suggestion.

School is almost done.... First grade is a fresh slate.

Good Luck!

All scenarios are possible. Truth is, we are not in the classroom so we don't truly know what's what.

IMO, there is a loss in the partnership between teachers and parents. When I was growing up in the 70s, it was like 8kidsdad said. If you get in trouble in school, you get it worse at home. There was a continuity in the discipline and formation of the child's character. Come to think of it any grown up (or even an older sibling) was able to chastise us when we do wrong. It was the adage of a community raising the child put into practice.

Nowadays, a lot of people play the blame game. It's the teacher's fault. No, it's the parent's fault. There is a mom in my daughter's class who I like a lot. The daughter, not so much. Our school has a separate grading sheet for behavior. She (the mom) called me crying because her daughter got 2s (4s are the highest and 1 is the lowest) in behavior. She went on a litany, telling me how smart her kid is and that all she has is academics and how dare she (teacher) make her daughter out to be a trouble maker and made it sound like her daughter is annoying. Her husband was in the conference as well and referred to the teacher as stupid. I reminded her that this is behavior not academics and that sometimes our kids at home may not be the same as our kids in school. Her daughter denied her bad behavior at school. This is exactly why conferences should include the child.

My daughter's 3rd grade classroom has issues. Some warrant concern and some are blown out of proportion. I am not a teacher and my kid, although not perfect is the kid that does good, behaves and love school. I strongly believe that as a parent, it is our responsibility to raise our children to do what what is right regardless of who is there or not there. I'm not saying they should walk around with a halo in their heads but simply practice respect and live by the golden rule. I tell my children that they can not have 2 separate rules of what I do and what is done to me. My eldest has an internal moral compass. The younger is a bit more challenging. I talk to her teacher as to what works in the classroom and I also share what we do at home.

LOL, to 8kidsdads response. Although I am not a fan of hitting, but I am a fan of parent's parenting, and disciplining. I own a preschool and I can tell you the future does not look bright, unless parents start parenting. I can probably count on one hand the parents I admire for doing the tough work with their children, and my preschool has 72 children enrolled. I am sorry but I do not agree with the poster who said it is just poor classroom management, or lack of experience. Yes, classroom management is extremely important, however I personally see day to day the level of disrespect, and disregard for adult authority with children as young as 3 and 4. And, I also witness first hand how parents simply dismiss a negative report from a teacher when their child is having a difficult day. Yes, parents work and are tired, I was tired too when raising my kids, and trust me they were NOT perfect but they were respectful. I was the only one they drove nuts lol and that was at home!!!!! And in my opinion that is exactly how it should be!!! My daughter is a going into her third year teaching 2nd grade in September and fortunately she only has one behavior issue. Your son probably doesn't like school because I am quite sure it isn't much fun having disruption in his classroom all day. 25 children in Kindergarten is a lot of kids, when I had Kindergarten in my preschool 15 was my max. It is so strange to me that as a licensed childcare center in NJ you can only have 15 children max per child teacher ratio. However, in a public school classroom one teacher can have as many as 25 alone!! I totally empathize with teachers today dealing with such huge class size and not many resources to help them.

When I taught, there were half the class that I would say had behavior problems. When I was a kid, I remember my teacher having "bad days". I know I had my days and I'm sure I was a problem on certain days for her/them.

Butt, I know we had less behavioral problems back then than teachers do now. Why? The teacher had a "bored of education" and if they got really out of hand, the principal had a three foot long "bored of education" with holes drilled in it . . . and he knew how to use it. Then a note was sent home to the parents with the reason for the swats and how many. In my home, if the principal gave you three swats, you got three swats from dad. And mom made you write a letter of apology to the teacher you made you made mad. We had no gangs or other behavioral problems in our school(s). Almost all of the parents had the same rules.

Good luck to you and yours.

There are now up to 30 kids in elementary classes. It's a lot and I think especially difficult for kindergarten and first grade teachers. Many kids those ages can hardly sit still much less make it through a day of lessons. You have to be very patient and very gifted to be an effective teacher in these grades.

I think there are many issues to this question. I do think that parenting has swung the other way from corporal discipline to a loosey-goosey anything goes style of parenting. So when people say "behavior problems" do people mean that these are issues caused by parenting or by a child who has other issues? I have a friend who is a para-eduacator in special education who says that they have several children with severe anxiety issues. Anxiety is not really what special education is for, but who else helps these kids...?

And also, who defines "behavior problems...?" Is it a behavior problem if a kindergartener won't sit on the carpet with his hands to himself in a room full of 30 kids? Or if there's too much activity for them to be able to sit and write letters and they join in with others who are busy too?

If your son is coming home telling you stories about other kids being bad, I'm not sure that the teacher is handling things well in the classroom. My daughter had a child in her second grade class who had a really hard time in class. She would tell me every day almost that he got a "red" meaning that he had already gotten several warnings for negative behavior. She felt sorry for him because she recognized that the teacher got easily frustrated and couldn't handle him appropriately.

So I think it's hard to say based on a tidbit from the teacher and from what your son says. I would recommend that you try to spend some time in the classroom to see for yourself what goes one in there. I know that the teachers here rely heavily on parent volunteers to assist in the classrooms. There are no aids.

best of luck to you~

2-3 kids with behavior problems per class in K and 1st, tops in my son's classes. Its a cycle - when teachers are allowed to appropriately punish kids in their classroom, raise their voices, call the parents out for being lazy and push kids to excel, then students will start performing better and take pride in their accomplishments instead of their bad behavior.

25 is alot but what do expect the teacher to do if she is barely allowed to raise her voice, much less take more corrective measures, and put a students "feelings" before his/her being responsible for his/her academic expectations...like behaving in the classroom.

Btw, my son's school still allows corporal punishment AND school prayer. We have 60% parent support for any event and we made close to $70K in our school fundraiser and $25K at our school carnival. We tested the highest 4 out of 5 categories (85-98%) in standardized testing.
And he goes to a public school.

Parenting classes should be mandatory. I was just having this discussion w/ a friend yesterday. It's not uncommon for a teacher to have a handful of kids w/ disrespect for rules, etc... Just watch the tv shows (too) they r exposed, too. Parenting has become "Child-Centered." Then, the teacher gets to TRY to discipline and teach ! Years ago, teachers did not have to discipline to the degree they do today ! It was done at home.

Write a letter to the principal (now) and let him know who u do not want in your child's class next yr and why. Your child is there to learn. I have had to do it in the past. The class lists are probably made up by now...So either call or make an appt. I did it a few times and it was the best relief ever for my child.

I left teaching FT. I know teach parenting very PT. In my opinion, kids need to have a set bedtime, no phone until later, should not be calling adults by their first names, NO tv that isn't family like (Watch an episode of the Brady Bunch or Partridge Family) and if an adult isn't present in most of the scenes---turn it off, one dinner should be made and parents should take parenting classes---esp if the child is "spirited".

Do consider that MANY special needs kids are mainstreamed, too. I student taught in both spec ed and regular ed. Most of my friends who r teachers did not go on for special education like I did. That is a HUGE challenge, too when a teacher has kids under 504's or IEP's. I worked w/ ADD/ADHD kids during college.. I worked w/ LD kids in college, etc... Each special needs child has a plan that is supposed to be followed. Teaching is very different now !!! Boy, do I feel for this teacher. It sounds like she got the most challenging kids--At the same time, if they did not go to preschool there---Then, the school is just getting to know the kids !

I have a few friends who teach and they tell me about the changes of disrespect in the kids. They always pray to get a well behaved class. That's a rare find (now) they tell me. They think it's because parents let the kids sit in the driver's seat all to much.

We were laughing---When our parents said "NO"--- we took it as a "NO" the first time. We never sassed at a parent or a teacher. It was JUST not allowed.

Last year, in one of my kids grades. The principal had to do a huge program on respect on bullying. It got so bad that he pulled several kids in the office and asked who the bullies were. He got the same 7 names over and over. The parents of these 7 kids do not have any "rules" at home for them that I can see. They (THE KIDS) do not have bed times. They have more expensive clothes than I do. They have high tech phones. They bully---or did until they got caught. They were all in one class last yr, too. I felt soooo bad for a friend who chose not to write a letter like I did. She almost pulled her kid out and put her in a private school. This is what the older grades can be like....

There are 25 kids in my son's 7th grade.. There are two children in particular who disrupt the class. One child cannot sit still and talks all the day and at times provokes the other kids.. He was diagnosed with ADHD.. He can be rather disruptive. However, I feel sorry for the child in that he still comes to school with lots of candy.... which to me should be a no no... Not sure the deal with his parents.. but I feel bad in that allowing him lots of sugar isn't going to help him..

Additionally, another child has anger issues and has made threats and most recently hit my son.. We told on him and he now is suppose to be doing counseling.. Apparently, the child still curses other kids out when he doesn't get his way... tick tick tick.. That child is the one that worries me..

Like your son, if it's been a truly disruptive day in the classroom, my son feels VERY stressed..

You know, classmates are like co-workers.. some you like better than others.. :)

First don't blame the teacher. They are not really allowed to discipline kids.
You are not in the room. You cannot really trust what a six year old says. Why are you discussing other children's behavior problems with a teacher??????

25 without an assistant? That's a problem.
Teacher discussing discipline "problems" with you? That's a problem.
Your son's disliking school? That's a problem.

From what I read here, we don't know if the issues are the teacher, the lack of an assistant, the grouping, the services for children or ?????? And quite honestly, it would be very difficult for you to discover all the layers that go into a successful year. But, you can and should advocate for you child. By doing this, you help him, and all his peers.

I think you should address at least two of these with the principal. Schedule a meeting, be calm, don't talk about teacher comments at this meeting, and focus on your child's placement for next year. Discuss your expectations that your child will be in a well-managed classroom with sufficient assistance for whatever children are enrolled. And schedule another meeting for 3 weeks into the school year next fall to review with the principal how the year is going. All my best.

I simply do not believe that 12 of 25 kindergartners have behavior problems. I do believe that the teacher does not have realistic expectations for the age. I absolutely would talk to her principal.

My son had one child in his kindergarten class with behavior issues. The child had his own aide. There is maybe one child in his first grade class and honestly he is just a bit talkative and pushy - nothing serious that is not dealt with by the teacher talking to him.

I went to elementary school in the 70s. We had way LESS 'discipline' in our public school than my son's school does. They have red cards and yellow cards and time outs and written warnings to parents. We had teachers who gave us a little extra attention to figure out why we were squirmy or too talkative. My son's school expects that kids will not touch each other. In the 70s, teachers knew we were still learning about keeping our hands to ourselves. So they talked to us.

If a teacher had ever tried to hit one of us (and actually a teacher threatened a friend of mine in junior high), our parents would have had that teacher in court the next day. My son's school - the parents are way 'stricter' and punitive than 'back in the day'. DS goes to public school I did too.

I teach preschool (2 year olds) so I don't know if that counts. But the class I had was really great. There was 1 kid out of 12 that had some speech issues, but besides that they were a great group! 12 kids with a behavior problem seems like a lot. Is there an aide in the classroom too or is the teacher alone?