Stealing or Not?

I really can't add much more to what everyone else has said. I agree with what you did and how you handled the situation and agree with what the others have written here. I would do the same. Before children, I was a teacher. One time I had a parent call me to discuss my grading policy. (Part of the child's grade depended on independent work at home that the parent had to sign off on.) This parent told me that she knew of parents who would be signing off on this record knowing that they were lying for their children (including her), so I shouldn't be requiring this part of the grade. My reply? I cannot control what parents want to teach their children. If parents want to promote lying/deceiving, then that is exactly what their children will learn *from them.*

I think it is stealing. Sorry about the embarrassment! I've seen something on pictures on google images where the person who owns the photo has something like a watermark in the photo - you can see the photo clearly and even print it out, but unless you purchase it, it has the "watermark" as part of the picture. This photographer should know about that if they already don't - maybe you can tell them about it when you order your pic. You did right.

you did the right thing and your son will learn a great lesson in the long run.
as far as him being so candid, i would just remind him that it doesn't matter what other people do (so long has they're not physically hurting someone or themselves), to just always mind his own business and don't get involve.

We just do what is right, regardless of what anyone else is doing...

You gave your son a great lesson in ethics. Too bad children are so frank – that is an endless source of embarrassment for parents everywhere ;-). But those are two different issues.

If the proofs were owned and/or copyrighted by the photographer, and that information should have become evident at some point during your earlier interactions or be on the printed material he provided to you, then the scanning and reproducing are indeed illegal and unethical.

Stealing does affect the welfare of more than just the person stolen from. It sets up society-wide expectations that anything goes if you can get away with it. It raises the price of everything an honest consumer buys. It's possible the photographer's prices are so high because he is able to sell few photos to support himself, his business, and his family.

My husband and I produce science and math labs that we allow the purchaser to reproduce for his/her own use. Our copyright restrictions explicitly prohibit loaning, trading or reselling to other educators. And we know it happens, probably a lot from what we do hear about. We have to live frugally (the two of us together make about what one average schoolteacher earns) simply to keep our publishing house functioning. I would love it if all our customers were as honest as you!

They are the ones who should feel foolish! Not you or your son. If anyone says anything to you I would hope you would not have to explain yourself. It is stealing and a sneaky thing for parents to do, now there kids will think its ok to steal someones work. You did the right thing!

Stealing!

This was a good conversation to have with your son. The sign of "good Character" is respecting the laws even when nobody else will know.. At our daughter elementary they were all taught "Character Counts", boy it has really made all of the parents as well as the students stop and think before doing things they do not think others will find out about..

Remind your some how would he feel if somebody took something he made and called it their own with out his permission?

If you choose not to buy the pictures. You can purchase the rights to the picture, and I think this is cheaper. You will then be able to copy all the pictures you want. That's only if you really wanted the others.

You did the right thing. And so did your son. Doing the right thing doesn't always come with nice feelings. You used integrity and taught your son. Bravo. Those other parents can take the info as they choose.

You shouldn't be feeling foolish. You did nothing wrong. Your son did nothing wrong. He might have lacked a little tact when he brought this up with his friends but he's not wrong. His classmates parents ARE thieves and they could very well put this photographer out of business. The photographer has a family to feed just like everyone else. Too many people look the other way when this sort of thing happens.

Actually, it is against the law. The photographers most likely have a copyright against reprinting the photos and scanning and making your own copies is an infringement. It is one of those things hard to enforce, like buying a CD and copying it to your IPod or MP3.

You are absolutely right. Printing out those photos would have been stealing. Unfortunately in our society there are so many "gray" areas. Good for you for teaching your son what's right, because there is right and wrong. What a great lesson for your son to learn now.

You should not feel foolish, you should feel proud.

How old is your son? It's good that he is listening. Not that it might make you the most loved parent around for a bit. But I agree, I'm sure they have them copy written. And it's like the other person said, it's like copying a CD or DVD.
I do hate it when people do that tho and the prices are so expensive......it's not fair.
There are cheaper ways to get pics.....set up a family day and be creative and do your own pictures. Have a friend shoot them for you at a park or where ever a good background would be. If you shoot enough, there will be some good ones in there.....and have fun.

You are correct....those ARE copyrighted materials and while nowadays the line gets blurred a lot in the face of digital photography, the fact remains the same. They DID steal them. What a great lesson to teach your son. Creativity, talent and ideas have value, too, not just "things."

*ADDED* You ARE allowed to BUY a CD and copy it to your iPod or MP3 player....but technically, you can't "borrow" a CD and copy it.

You are correct and it can be illegal as well. I view it like speeding, shouldn't do it, but lots of us do. i go to a place where I pay a session fee so i feel I have paid for the photographer's time. As for the pictures, I purchase an 8X10 or 5X7 of each pose. I usually ask for 4 and they always ask to do more in hopes I'll buy more usually they do 8. i end up buying the 8 poses and scan & print more to give to family members. They do not put their name on the pictures which prohibits you from going elsewhere like walmart & printing more. I did call and ask for a waiver to print more on my own & they told me I didn't need one and have never asked since. the difference between the two is that walmart pictures will not last and the ones from the photographer will, or at least a lot longer. So, you ultimately are right, but it probably won't make you many friends, especially in this case and so you have to decide whether you want to be right or happy cuz you probably aren't going to be able to be both in this situation. Only you know your moral compass and what you can sleep with at the end of the day. A great solution for all would be the photographers offering the cheaper option of cheaper pictures that may not last as long, but until they do, our choices are to break the rules or do without. Some places now even let you purchase the pictures digitally where you can print them out yourselves & it is pricey too, but not as much as the pictures, so another option as well. Best of luck with this lesson gone bad. :)

Oh don't you love kiddos? lol...My son saw people smoking when we were walking through town the other day and yelled, "M., those people are smoking drugs! I see them in their hands! Do you see M.? Do you see?" I wanted to die. Yes, you did the right thing, even if your son "outed" you and your morals lol.. Maybe it will make the others feel a little bad about what they did or maybe it won't... either way you made the decision to do what was right :) Good job mama.

I agree with the overwhelming majority opinion, that it IS theft, but the secondary question is coaching your child to effectively deliver messages that will be unpopular, even if they are right. Knowbody likes a self-righteous know-it-all, even less if they realize that he's right and they are guilty. If your son drops the verdict like a bomb, well, he makes enemies, but if he can say it in a thought-provoking way, well, he's made converts.
He may not be old enough to be coached on this, but here's an opportunity for a post-mortem: How do you turn "Your parents are stealing!" into "Doesn't anybody worry about how the photographers pay the rent?"

You did the right thing and I understand you feeling foolish, but you did the RIGHT thing. Your son did nothing wrong either. Maybe just talk with him again to see if he's catching any "flack".... I'd be concerned that he is okay and doens't feel he did anything wrong either. You might want to try to explain that some parents didn't think it was stealing b/c they just printed copies, but YOU feel it's stealing and it's wrong.

I think you are doing the right thing. I am surprised that the company did not place some wording on the print ("proof") to insure scanning could not be done. If everyone scanned the photos, the company would obviously be losing money. In essence, that is stealing. As far as your son goes, I guess I would tell him that your choice was to pay for the photos and you cannot take responsibility for others actions. He is young, but this is a good way to start showing him examples of right and wrong. Maybe some of those parents will feel a little uncomfortable about their decision.

You should not feel foolish or embarrassed and neither should your son.
You should be proud of having ethics and teaching to your son the right way to go.
The other parents should feel foolish and embarrassed because they stole someone else's property, intellectual property. They can push this photographer out of business and then who will make these beautiful photos? Maybe the photos are so expensive to begin with because the photographer has to balance the effect of the stolen pictures. If he used to make 50 pics and sell 40 and now makes the same effort and uses the same material to make 50 pics but sells only 20, these 20 will need to be double price for him to keep his profit.

So basically, when you meet one of these parents next time, you are the one who can stand straight and face them and THEY should be the ones feeling ashamed and looking down at the floor.
Unfortunately, between being polite and tactful, the blurred line in what is legal/honest or not in intellectual property... you feel foolish and they blame you! The world is upside down.

L.,
We have the same issue with our school photographer, he is absolutely wonderful, but very expensive. Paul Cryan? Anyway, I feel the same way you do... I think maybe the first year I may have copied one but have since felt the guilt and if I really liked a pose, I suck it up and save save save. There's no way you could have predicted that your son would have said that to his friends and you really shouldn't feel bad about what you told him, maybe just have a conversation with your son about what's appropriate to say to his friends. Let him know that he may have hurt their feelings even if that's obviously not what he intended to do.
Hope this helps,
E.

Ooooh, I should let my husband answer this question. He is a professional photographer and has been battling this issue for years. Yes, it is stealing. Yes they are copyrighted images and yes it's illegal. (Just like a book, DVD or CD.) An artist created those images and even though they may have your child's image in them, the creation is owned by them. So to the mom who responded who thinks it's ok because you've already paid a session fee - it's not. Whoever her photographer is is hurting their profession by telling her it's ok. The images should have it written on back "Professional Paper. Do Not Copy" or something to that effect. It is not a gray area. It is stealing.

Just like you wouldn't walk into an art gallery and take a painting off the wall and walk out without paying, you shouldn't copy a photograph without permission. Some photographers will give permission (usually the ones who are more like "hobbyists" than true professionals, or they may give permission if they feel like they have made enough to cover their costs and then some). They are not only stealing from the photographer but from their own PTA since this is a fundraiser.

Why are these images so expensive? There is way more than the photographer's time you are paying for (usually covered in the session fee).
- Equipment. The best and latest digital cameras cost anywhere from $3000-$5000. Lighting equipment is in the thousands of dollars. Computers, photoshop all more thousands.
-- Training. Photographers don't just acquire the knowledge. They have to attend training, conferences and workshops in order to produce competitive images that will make them stand out and keep them in business. All these conferences are expensive ($1000 to attend, plus flight, hotel, time away from work) and most good photographers will attend 2 or 3 a year.
-- Staff. Good photographers will have staff who will be the ones who retouch the images or lighting assistants on the day of the shoot. They also have to be specially trained. My husband's assistant is full time and we pay her health insurance as well as for numerous workshops to keep her photoshop skills competitive. It can take her upwards of 1 hour per image to make it "perfect" in photoshop (removing stray hair, blemishes, etc). Her pay comes directly from the sale of the images.
-- Overhead. If the photographer has an office/studio the rent, utilities and insurance run into the thousands per month.
-- Professional lab service. Usually you have to apply and quailfy to do business with a professional lab. The lab charges for not only the prints, but the color correction and time spent on each individual image.

Some photographers are selling their images on CD for you to do whatever you want with them. The CD will be priced in a way that is covering for the cost involved and with the knowledge there won't be any future print sales (so it's usually expensive). This is controversial because you can take the image to Walmart or print it out on your own Laser Jet and get sub-quality images. Then you show it to your friends and family, tell them who the photographer is and they will make a face and make sure they don't use them, so many photographers still don't offer their images on CD for this reason. Their images that are being passed around are like marketing for them and the true print, created at the lab is the best representation of their work, not the flimsy, silky, blurry Walmart version. We do offer a CD in many of our packages now to stay competitive but cringe at the thought of our images out there being trashed.

And as far as your son telling his classmates - GOOD for him! Hopefully the moms who did the stealing will feel just a slight bit guilty for it and they should be the ones who are embarrassed and ashamed, not you.

I find it interesting that no one is bothered by the game that is being played by both the PTO (and the photographer, quite frankly). "Here, let me take beautiful pictures of your child that will cost you an arm and a leg if you want to keep them". But at least they gave you the choice of whether or not you wanted your child to sit for the session. Time and time again my daughter has come home with a package of pictures that were taken weeks before (that the school did not notify anyone about beforehand). They say if you open the envelope, you've bought them (for $100 or so and God forbid your child opens the envelope before you get to it). If I had my choice, I would never have allowed her to sit for the pictures to begin with - especially since she already sat for pictures (which I already paid for) at the beginning of the school year in September.

Back to your original question - yeah it's stealing to take the pictures and scan them in. I would have never let him sit for the pictures to begin with - especially if they hadn't advertised what the final prices were going to be beforehand. I don't see why they wouldn't be up front about that - unless of course they were going to try to scrape you for as much money as they can.

I work for a photographer and I can tell you categorically it IS stealing. Photographers work very hard to get from the raw image they take to the final image you see. Even if you were to do those same poses yourself the images would not be nearly as wonderful as the ones the photographer took simply because of the amount of work involved. Kudos to you for teaching you son right from wrong and kudos to your son for trying to teach his classmates (even if it wasn't to most diplomatic approach).

-S.

Aren't kids great when they repeat things?

Well, maybe the other parents will think twice. Sure, photos are expensive. They're not paying for the prints, they are paying for the skill of the photographer, and if they can't afford it, they are welcome to take their own photos or go elsewhere (like Walmart).

Why should YOU feel foolish? You didn't do anything wrong. And if your son learns the lesson, maybe he will teach his classmates something. If kids see their parents cheating, on their taxes or otherwise, it send the wrong message.

Thus, I validate you and your feelings. You are teaching your son good values which will hold him in good stead the rest of his life. Those other parents need to wise up and do the same. Hang in there!

You did the right thing. :) I think you taught your son a valuable lesson with this experience. If the other parents are offended by what your son has told their children then I would take that as a sign that they now know what they did was wrong. Let the other parents explain to their own children why they did what they did and you worry about how well you are teaching your child. Way to go!!!

LOL, that is touchy. you really are right bc it is stealing...however it is so commonly done, but does that make it right? It really does not matter bc that is how you feel and that is what you belive and that is what you can tell your son. some people think it is stealing bc........and some people dont. in this family we do not do stuff like that. You can explain that it is their job and if you dont buy the pictures then they dont get money to take care of their family etc.. just tell the truth, that is what you should do as a mom, so good for you! It is such a hard call really, but if that is how you feel you are totally correct for telling your son that. it is unfortunate that he said that to his classmates but kids will say things and their parents will then have to just explain themselves as they feel necessary.

Many professional photographers imprint something on the paper that when someone scans the photo, words show up on the photo making it impossible to make out the image and make it apparent that the photo was scanned w/o permission.

WOW!! WOW!! This one has happend to me. My son was what I think, 4 or 5 when we went to Express Portraits in the mall. Back then, they didnt' proof them like they do now- they would show you in an hour what your prints looked like and you picked which ones you wanted, THEN they would go to the back and actually bring your package out to you.
Well, knowing after a while how the routine worked- I caught on pretty quick and waited for the person to go to the back and get my package ready- I knew I had at least 20 minutes or so to pack the stroller with what I WANTED to take home- my son saw this and questioned us about it at home- yes, we felt terrible about STEALING.. but in our eyes back then- we justified it cause we didnt' have the $180 or whatever it was at that time for our packages. So we would just tell him it was not yelling.
Well, come a year later my other son was born, and when we went to another portrait studio ( of course, not the same one ) and being more mature at the time, so we thought.. our oldest son knew just what to do when the staff lady went to the back office. That is when I realized how WRONG I was!!! I had to sit down that day, that minute and explain to BOTH my boys and myself how wrong it was!!
This is wrong, it does take a lot of patience, and money to make these portraits come out just perfect. It does cost a lot and when they got the copyrigth paper stamp on the back of the portraits- that is when they got "smart". If I dont' have the money to purchase pictures- I just dont' bother going to take them. I am glad you took care of this right away with your son, and I am glad he is learning a lesson and teaching that lesson to his classmates...
My kids do the same thing- with cussing/slander/dirty mouth/misbehaving and rules ... they go straight and tell then what NOT to do and dont' hesitate to report bad stuff to the leaders of thier school... Go kids!!!

Why do you feel foolish? You are a great mom teaching your son the rules of our society. It is the other parents that should be foolish. I don't know when it became acceptable and sometimes praised in our society to "beat the system." I have to say that it made me very happy to read someone teaching morality to their child. Good for you and shame on the other parents.

Your son trusts that his parents will tell him the truth to life's dilemmas. You explained that the pictures weren't yours to do with as you wanted, but that they belonged to the photographer. By acting honorably, you can sleep easily.
Children think in literal terms so using words like 'stealing' and 'against the law' was a little heavy. Stick with explaining why you choose not to do something and he'll understand.
As for feeling foolish, that is very understandable. A conversation you had at home got carried to school. I bet you're worried about the reaction the parents had and how they'll act around you. However, you took the high road and acted honorably. You might even have pricked someone else's conscience and encouraged them to do the right thing.

This is a tricky situation because you were absolutely right in what you said and did not know that your child was going to tell his classmates that their parents are thieves. What makes this tricky is that it might rub some of the other parents the wrong way and impact all the different relationships in negative ways. Again, you ARE right, you really are but no one takes well to being accused of being a thief or other bad names by their children whether its right or wrong. I feel for you, you are a good mother and I hope that everything turns out well.

LOL. oh, you poor thing. I can laugh because it isn't me... I really feel for you. As a kid, I often pulled this kind of thing on my poor parents... I was the kid who informed our hostess that "my daddy doesn't like ham" and the now infamous quote I said to my mom's post-partum friend: "My mommy says your baby is ugly." You now have the right to remind him of this uncomfortable incident for the rest of his life. Yes, you are right, it would be stealing. Just because it's so ridiculously easy to do and the photographer was very expensive and everybody's doing it doesn't make it right. Do we refrain from stealing because it's hard to pull off? You didn't mention how old your son is, but I imagine him around 7-9? This is a great time for the seeds of morality to germinate in our children's consciousness. I see it with my 8 year old. She's fierce in her sense of justice and yet at the same she wants what she wants. It's important to learn you can't always get all the pictures. Kudos to you.

I just want to add in my two cents here - you are not at all foolish, and I think you taught your son a good lesson. It is commonplace but that doesn't mean it is right - it is stealing. And illegal. Good for your son for telling his classmates. I hope their parents feel guilty.

I'm so glad you did what you did! This talented photographer is trying to make a living. Obviously he's good at what he does if everyone is so eager to steal from him. He deserves the fee he charges b/c he does good work. That is part of the lesson you taught your son, that if you do well at your job you deserve to be fairly compensated. Also you showed him that it's better to DO THE RIGHT THING than to just go along with the crowd. A lesson that will show up again when a group of his friends are drinking or perhaps doing drugs. Catch my drift? Dont feel silly for having integrity!

As someone who has in the past sold my photography - you are 100% right - this is stealing ! You are a great parent for teaching your child. You never intended for him to accuse the other parents, so don't feel foolish - you must teach the lessons you must teach. Sadly it seems those other parents never learned the lesson. This won't be the last time you are alone on the sidelines with a higher ethic/moral conscious than other parents - but don't compromise yourself. Stay strong.
However, one unexpected lesson that might come out of this for you, which I've had to learn, is to anticipate when my teachings to my children might be going against the crowd and also explain that. If I want my child to understand that we don't agree with the other behavior, but that we also don't have to point it out to the other children and possibly cause hurt feelings, I also build that into my discussion. But having said that, believe me - I think you were 100% correct.

You Rock! No, it's not LIKE stealing, it IS stealing. No, you shouldn't feel foolish.

Ouch! I agree that scanning the photos was dishonest. This is tough for kids to understand because they think of stealing as taking something tangible. It's unfortunate that your child overheard the conversation. Now that the cats out of the bag, it's time for a talk about discretion. Explain why he shouldn't discuss it with his friends and that their feelings could get hurt.

On a side note, it surprises me that the photographer would not have protected his/her digital images with a watermark, which is widely used. It's a little out of the ordinary, but perhaps anonymously you could contact the photographer and let them know what's happening

Don't feel foolish. You are absolutely correct. If your son told his friends on his own, and they tell their parents, oh well. The parents KNOW they are stealing - they just don't want to be called out on it! It is the same as downloading music you didn't pay for, or movies. A college kid in Boston got a HUGE fine (like over half a million dollars) for downloading music. It's serious and it's illegal. Those photos are the photographer's work product - if people don't want to pay the price (like you), they are under no obligation to do so. If they look at the back of the photo, they will see that it is marked as copyrighted or some other proprietary phrase. If they took it to Target to scan it, the store would refuse to allow it.

You did nothing wrong. Hold your head high. The other parents are the ones who should feel foolish, not you.

I'll chime in with agreement! You did the right thing - the word you're searching for is "copyright". I believe photographers who shoot for a living automatically have copyrights to ALL their work. Buying the pictures is thanking him for his beautiful job! To not buy them and still use them is a compliment, but in a very twisted (and illegal) way. And to not buy them lets him know that either you didn't like them, or that you simply chose not to buy them (you have others, or they just aren't in your budget). It's not something he'll take personally, but to choose TO give your money to him IS the biggest compliment anyone can give a photographer. (Totally not guilting you into buying more, just explaining a little.)

I do agree that sometimes "stealing" can be a strong word, but if your son is old enough to understand the concept of copyright (after you explain it), then he'll have a clear understand of how it's the exact image that the photographer took that belongs to him. It's immoral AND illegal to use that image without his express permission (aka buying it).

You know, I'm sure you are embarrassed about how your son went and told other kids that their parents were thieves, LOL! But maybe in the same conversation that you have with him about tact, you should also commend him for standing up to his friends and being the only one to point out the right thing, when the rest were doing wrong (even if the children were too young to realize it on their own...I'm sure each child stood up for their own parents).

Kudos to you!!

I am a photographer, and as much as I hate it, people "steal" photos all the time. I am even guilty in doing so years ago, before I really understood what it took (time, effort, etc.) to create such images. Photographers know it happens, and just hope that people take the high road - much like yourself. Thank you for being brave and teaching your child to respect this issue. I appreciate it and it will come back to you 10 fold.