Punishment for 4 Yr Old...

The problem is kids start out like puppies, if you don't catch them in the act there is no point in punishing them.

I think by four you should be able to connect the dots. I can't imagine how taking away a bedtime story could be tied to any bad behavior in school though.

Okay I will probably be jumped by every early childhood teacher but they should be doing the punishing there. That way when he is considering mischief he sees the teacher and goes, oh right, maybe not....

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I don't think the youngster can make the connections you are asking about without having it spelled out for them. I find it best, with my four year old, if the consequence relates to the misbehavior.

For example, if the misbehavior at school was aggressive acting out (hurting or not listening), perhaps we would sit down and write the other child a letter of apology. The child figures out what to say/expresses remorse (if they are remorseful) and parent takes dictation. In this situation, we are drawing their attention to the fact that their actions hurt another person and affected their relationship with that person. Making amends to the relationship is more helpful/useful to the child than taking away a bedtime story.

Sometimes, too, I'll ask my son to sit down and think of 'three ways you could do it better next time' or 'three other choices' and we'll write them down. I think I err on the side of "if I can teach him to respond better the next time, and if we can practice it or talk about what those better choices are, it will be more effective than punishment."

That said, any aggressive behavior in our home is met with a 4 minute time-out. We reserve time out for just aggressive behaviors.

Or if behavior at school was reported to be poor, perhaps the playdate for that afternoon or a fun outing is cancelled. I've done this with my son on occasion, when I've had an uncooperative morning. "You know, we've had a tough morning because you don't want to follow directions, and I am not taking you (to the zoo, playdate) when I can see that you don't want to listen to adults. We'll try it on another day when I am seeing better cooperation."

Now, if my son was not cooperating with the bedtime routine, then saying "Wow, you know what? You took so long getting ready for bed, we won't have time for a story tonight." would make sense to him. All of what I have suggested have better connections than the long reach of school-to-bedtime.

Lastly, as a preschool teacher myself(and I'm limiting my advice to the 3-5 year olds here.), I often ask parents to NOT punish their child's misbehavior after the fact. We've never had severely egregious behavior in the school setting (I keep a close eye on my groups), and we do deal with misbehavior in the moment. I would rather parents use their child's confessions of misbehavior as an opportunity for problem-solving than punishment. By the time kids (or teachers, for that matter) tell parents about it, the moment has passed and the child is often processing. If we punish, we begin to inhibit our child's openness with us and they may grow to not trust us as a resource for help. I really believe that, unless there's a household culture of bragging about hurting others, kids are trying to process these experiences to gain help and insight and to find understanding around what happened. Just my opinion. I always prefer education to punishment.:)

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What does taking away bedtime story TEACH her about misbehaving at school? Does it teach her why the behavior was wrong? Does it give her tools and ideas for how to correct her behavior and make a good choice next time? Does it bring the two of you closer?

I never applied a double consequence - unless it was a natural consequence. For example - if my daughter got in trouble at school for talking during her work and then her worksheet didn't get done... well then she had to complete that worksheet at home which meant there was less time for "fun". But that's wasn't a "punishment". It was "school is very important so since you didn't get your work done at school you have to get it done at home".
BUT - if she was talking in class and lost recess time..... well, the teacher handled it. I would talk to her and have HER come up with ways to pay attention in class and tell me why the rules are important etc. But I didn't apply an unrelated punishment at home too. That never made sense to me and didn't teach her anything - except to make everyone unhappy.

To take away bedtime story (presumably something that you BOTH love) doesn't teach her anything about the behavior you want her to have in school.

It would be helpful to hear specifically how she is misbehaving at school and then we could give some specific examples of consequences.

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They understand.... "cause and effect" at this age.
BUT... if the "punishment" is not RIGHT at that moment.... per the offense, then they may not really understand that. Because, it happened, earlier.

You also need to talk WITH the child... about why and how come a discipline is being done.
Otherwise, the child will not learn... about why they are being "punished."
Discipline goes hand in hand, with.... discussing it and explaining to the child.... about it.

Bear in mind, kids this age are NOT experts at "deductive reasoning" yet. They are their age.... per cognition and emotional development.
Kids this age, are not fully emotionally developed nor experts at their emotions yet, either.
Hence, they make mistakes.
Even the best of kids and the "smartest" of kids... make mistakes.

DISCERN... with your child, the DIFFERENCE between a "mistake" and a wrong, behavior.

You also need to teach a child "coping skills" for frustrations or problems... showing them and role-playing WITH them... about situations and how they can solve them.... so that, they learn FROM you... about different ways they can cope.
So, for example: instead of "yelling" about a frustration... TEACH the child that they can TELL you about why they are frustrated, that they CAN tell you, teach them how to use their voice and how to speak up and tell the Teacher... teach them HOW to ASK for help etc. Before they start yelling out of frustration or because the adult does not understand "why" they are frustrated.
There are MANY ways... to express and handle... frustrations.
Teach your child that.
It gives them social, aptitude and management over their feelings.

ALSO know... that for a child (and for an adult), just because they may mentally understand something... it does NOT mean, that they can do it, nor perfectly, nor well.

Teach your child how to "try your best...." then that way, a hoped for ability and skill and behavior, is more in reach, for a child. And attainable.
Not just a black and white, right or wrong.
Some kids won't even try... because they think they cannot do it, "perfectly" enough for their parent and will get scolded, anyway. No matter how hard, they may try.
And PRAISE your child, for doing "his best."
And next time, too.

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Yes. Four year olds are very smart. They are not like animals that have to be disciplined right on the spot or they don't understand. But I wouldn't take away bedtime story because, IMO, bedtime stories are educational (if the child is allowed to see the pages and follows along as you read). I would find something else like having to stay in their room for the entire afternoon after school. That seems a more fitting punishment for misbehaving at school.

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Yes definitely! Though, as other posters have said, I wouldn't take away bedtime stories b/c at this age, they REALLY help w/ literacy (when they can follow along in the book). What I found really works - if she's really bad - is taking away her favorite stuffed animal. I've only had to do it once or twice before she learned that I was serious.

Also, more further out punishments work, but more slowly. Like if she behaves badly on a Monday and say that you'll take away a special thing she gets to do on Weds (also helps to have a special thing like movies in bed Wednesday or something). B/c when Weds comes around, you can talk to her about why she doesn't get to watch a movie. It helps them remember their misbehaviors and they seem to learn. Though, then they misbehave in new, different ways. But that's kids...

Timeouts seem to work well too, if you give them time to "calm down" and then one more chance to be nice.

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I would say yes but you have to be very to the point and follow through. Just say I was told that you did this and that at school today and that is not okay so tonight there will be no bedtime story and leave it at that. If he cries about it just remind him maybe tomorrow you can do better at school and get your story tomorrow night. 4 year olds are very capable of understanding punishments and they are also very good at manipulation at such a young age too.

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My 4YO does, but I try to make it more directly related both in subject and time. I wouldn't take away a bedtime story, but I would definitely take away screen time after school.

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I believe so. My 20 month old understands a lot. And when discipline along with explanation helps, I'm convinced he understands.

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My 3yr does. But I talk with him about it first.. Like if he is doing X action at school they do the time out and we discuss it when he gets home.. if he does it agian.. then I take something that is meaningful for him away.. I don't take it away the first time he does it.. I give it time.

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Yes, they usually can. Dr. Sears is an expert in this area and has plenty of great advice on ways to discipline and teach young children this age:

http://askdrsears.com/topics/discipline-behavior

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I think consequences have to have meaning and losing a story at bedtime only has to do with some behavior at bedtime.

For misbehavior at school I think losing something at school is the proper thing and he teacher should be the one to give the consequence. That way he learns that the teacher is the boss and can "make him mind".

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my son is 5 and i don't punish him (yet) when he gets in trouble at preschool. we have a stern talk and that's the end of it. i always take the teacher's side. the time is drawing near however. i want to be very sure that he remembers and understands and is CAPABLE of thinking that far ahead. "uh-oh, if i get in trouble at school i will get in trouble at home too!" much of their learning cause and effect is really short term at this age. their attention spans are short and i don't really think it's fair to expect a kid to remember for 9 hours something like that. now, when he is older, absolutely. but at this age i really feel the most effective (and fair) discipline is catching them in the act and disciplining them right then and there. it seems excessive to me to then punish him again, hours later, for the same thing. i really let the teachers handle it and it has worked so far. but then i also trust the teachers to treat him fairly. they do timeouts just like we do. so i have no concerns.

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of course they can!!!! a 1 year old understands. I dont know why some parents insist children are morons that cant comprehend right vs wrong, or what a punishment is. Obviously you would punish a small child differently than a teenager or even an 8 or 9 year old. but yes, you talk to your child, in a way they understand, keep it short and sweet and give the punishment.

Understand? Sure. Kids are brilliant, and four is old enough for impulse control at school. Is a delayed tactic like not reading a story at night (after nice full afternoon after school) effective enough to prevent next time she wants to act out at school? Possibly not. Depends how hugely important story time is to your daughter, and how easy your daughter's temperament is. It wouldn't leave me shaking in my boots when I was four, nor would I have ever gotten off that easy if my parents caught wind of bad behavior in school.

In K4 my daughter absolutely understood that if I heard from the teacher she was disrespectful during school (any disruptive behavior was considered disrespectful to teacher), she would have consequences. 4 is definitely old enough for that. I was told ONCE by the teacher my daughter was not behaving well in class (natural to push boundaries half way through year if comfortable) and I warned her ONCE I would be checking every day and if she wasn't behaving she would have a serious consequence as soon as she got home PLUS having favorite blanky removed for whole night(equal to the end of the world to her, but not firm enough on it's own). And of course we made sure she knew how proud we are of how well she usually acts. Problem solved, never happened, and she excelled in her behavior the rest of the year because we had always been consistent and she had no reason to doubt it. We kept things very positive, happy and fun all the time, but had firm consequences on deck if needed.

If you're thinking of doing book removal because time out isn't working, the book removal may not be any more effective. It's still just a mild omission of nicety for a few minutes, rather than a serious consequence. Try though, IF having a story at night is absolutely HUGE to your daughter and she fears losing it terribly, it may work to make her decide against wrong action during the day to preserve her story time. You'll know soon enough if it works. If it needs tons of repetition, I wouldn't do it, because you don't want to stop reading bed time stories! If it doesn't work, This book is great for effective discipline at this age: Back to Basics Discipline by Janet Campbell Matson.
ps It's hard to know HOW she's misbehaving though, if it's really mild misbehavior that is brand new and not persisting, the book removal may be enough. If it's something she's being stubborn about that really needs to stop, I'd be tougher on it.

They sure can -- they get it perfectly.

You have to be clear and consistent. I find that my discipline methods work the best when I

1. lower my voice and don't yell. I actually speak a little more quietly than normal so that he makes an extra effort to hear me
2. I squat and get on his level, eye to eye, without hovering over him
3. I tell him clearly: "son, I will count to 3 slowly. If, after I count to three, you do not pick up your toys, I will pick them up for you and put them away. You will not get to play with them until tomorrow." or "...you will be in timeout for four minutes." ...or " you will not get to watch Dora today."

Once I lay the consequence out clearly, he gets the message.

Yes!!! Don't insult a 4 YO's intelligence.