International Marriage

A.:

Your friend should watch the movie "Not without my daughter" - about an American W. who married Iranian man - I think he was a doctor. I am married to an American. And the best thing I can tell you - is that if she says "that won't happen to me" - she has blinders on...it might not happen to her - but it can.

NO you are NOT being closed minded.

I am not afraid of the world outside of the U.S....I've lived in other countries and traveled.

She needs to do some research...these are questions I would ask her or my sister/friend to ask of me:
* does she want (or willing to) to renounce her U.S. Citizenship?
* does she want to renounce the Catholic faith and become Islamic? While Tunisia is tolerant of other faiths...is this something she is willing to consider?
* is she willing to wear a Hajib? Tunisia has "advanced" and not all women need to wear on - however - it's something she needs to consider.
* is she willing to be dominated by this man? (Berber/Islamic men TEND to "control" their women)
* Tunisia is a farming country - is that what she wants?
* Tunisia also co-habitat's with family

How did she meet this man?
How well does she know this man?
Has she met him in Tunisia and seen his home and met his family?
Has he come to America and met her family?

What are her expectations?
How will she provide for herself - can she get a job?
What is expected of her?

There are so many questions I would want to ask her...guess not bombard her all at once, but over time...

I know there is one mom on here married to an Iranian Doctor but they live here in the U.S.

Our neighbor has a wife from Columbia. She comes here for the Summer and Fall then leaves for the winter! :) They've been married for 5 years.

It's great that you are protective of your friend and want to help her!!

I think marriages like this can work, but they generally don't because the people involved don't sufficiently delve into and find out about the cultures they are diving into while they are infatuated with/blinded by love.
Culture shock can be a rude awakening.

She should visit Tunisia for extended periods of time before she gets married. Meet his family, see where they would live...

I dated my DH for 4 years before we were married and came to the US on vacation once or twice a year before we got married and making the move was still HARD.

Moving to a new country is hard for most people, no matter where it is... but it's good to have at least an idea of what you're getting into, live in the culture for a bit before you decide.

Good luck to her.

I'm with Marie... Tunisia is in a bit of a shakeup right now. Tunisia has been long known for strong women's rights "We are a country of free women and happy men" was often used to describe the general attitude in Tunisia (probably why her fiance suggested it as a place to go).

As of just a few weeks ago.... the new elections have thrown all the balls into the air, and there are a lot of protests and minor (that I know of) uprisings.

Here are a couple articles to read about what's happening in T right now:

http://rt.com/news/ennahda-party-country-jebali-905/
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/02/tunisia-women-de...
http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/11/13/176916.html (it's in english)
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/21/world/middleeast/mixed-...

For personal experience... I almost married into an Arabic family (special circumstances... as a diplomat he was allowed to bring -and claim- his wives with him. I would have been the third. I still keep in touch with them, LOVELY people.) Many of my friends are married to Islamic men (of many nationalities). Their marriages and their lives are all different.

Consider this Q: My friend wants to marry a christian man, I'm worried, what are your friend's lives who are married to christian men like? (aka RADICALLY different depending on the man himself, and the country/culture they live in).

As far as country/culture:

The nationality thing is pretty key (as are tribal affiliations). Iran (where the film 'Not without my daughter' is based, and where such things are pretty common) and Tunisia are about as similar as the USA and Brazil, or USA and China. Some shared religious concepts (christianity or agnosticism), different languages (arabic has MANY different dialects, some completely and totally incomprehensible to each other, even though they share a base... similar to how "chinese" is split into many different languages that share a similar base... or how we have "romance" languages and "germanic" languages), and RADICALLY different politics.

Berbers rather universally find the practices of Iran (and other extremist nations) to be backwards and vile. Iran has DEPLORABLE rights and practice for women and a crazy (literally) leader. And yet, many (if not most) Iranians are wonderful people, many Iranian women are highly educated, hold positions of power, the list goes on.

No matter what nationality you are, if there is an embassy in the country you are in, you're almost guaranteed the right to go "home". Problems ensue when you start have children. Just as in this country, most countries do NOT allow one spouse to abscond with their children without the express permission of the other parent. How much they enforce that varies, as do the steps one needs to take to disallow that (like in this country, you need both parent's permission for a passport, but once you have a passport, you have to file for an emergency order of custody in order to prevent your spouse from leaving the country with your child or NO ONE can stop them at the airport. Rules change, country to country.

Which is a lot of words that boil down to: I have NO idea what kind of man your friend is looking at marrying, nor what her practical nor legal life will look like wherever she ends up. It can be REALLY varied.

Just like here.

You should be concerned.

There are many cultural differences, some minor and some extreme. In most cases it's not a good or bad, just very different. It's also one thing to go visit for a few weeks, and another to actually live that lifestyle day in and day out.

I would have coversations with her to make her really think about what she's getting herself into...
Have you met any of his family? How does his family feel about her?
Have you visited Tunisia? What do you like, dislike?
What will she do if she moves there? Does she have a career? Will she work, stay home?
Religion - is either one of them will to convert? If the have children, how will they be raised?

Differences attract but she needs to really look long and deep with this one. Does he have any other wives back home? Sometimes men from Arab countries come to the US to get an education and then go back home. While here they will play the American dream role and woe and fall in love and then marry taking the new wife home to live in the family and the new wife has to listen and follow what the older wife says. Some Arab countries men can have more than one wife and there is a pecking order.

How many males are in the family? I ask this because if he is the first male in the family and she marries him and he dies, she becomes the first wife of the second brother and all the wife(s) he has get moved down the line. So she would never get out of the family if there are more than say three brothers. Not something that is mentioned.

Yes what about the American passport protection? Will she be able to have a second at an Embassy in case things go bad? Will she be able to drive a car without hubby or a male relative accompanying her everywhere? Who has rights to the kids if something goes wrong? Can she bring them back to the states or does she have to leave them there? Will she have any say in what goes on in the household? Does he have a dominating aura about him? I ask this because its presence comes out and it is something you have to be strong in yourself to deal with. They can browbeat you into doing what they want and not respecting what you want. Is your friend a quiet person or an outspoken person? If she is quiet she will have a harder time getting out.

Yeah, these guys can be "dreams" but you have to really look beyond the cover of the book.

I wish you luck in helping your friend see the light with what she is doing with her life.

The other S.

PS I worked at a university in my younger years and dated a few students from around the world. The Arab males were a breed of their own and a challenge.

You guys also have hit it on the head about religious beliefs they too need to be vetted out before the marriage should there be one. If necessary perhaps have it in writing.

EDIT: Remember that you are under the governing rules of the country you live in and not those of America even though you are an American.

I am not afraid of the world outside of the USA and I've traveled to much of it and love it. I also know Western women who are very happy in marriages to Arabic men, and I don't think all Arabic men are bad. That said, this situation has a ring of "Uh Oh" to it. There are several things need to be taken into account here:

How long have they been dating? They have been dating -right? This isn't some internet romance is it -because if it is, she needs to be physically restrained to keep her from going there.

How Catholic is she and how Muslim is he? For some, they are barely religious -if at all (it's just the way they were raised) -so it's a non-issue. For others, it's a serious difference. Do either of them care about their religious holidays to the point that they would be angry if a spouse didn't celebrate them or would they want a spouse to no longer celebrate theirs?

Does she know the laws in respect to marriage, women's rights, divorce, domestic violence, etc. in Tunisia? She needs to look at those and think about them for a long time.

IF she goes ahead with this, she should probably only agree to it if he will come here and live or they can live in another western country in Europe or Canada. I say that because, as a woman, she would definitely have more rights and recourse if things got bad.

I would discourage her, but if they actually know each other and have been seeing each other -as long as they stay here in the U.S. I would be okay with it -but do raise the questions I have. There have been a number of women who really got themselves in a mess like this.

If she's going to be joining her life to this man, then she needs to know what she's getting into. You don't just marry one person, you marry that person, plus all his friends and family. She should go to wherever they're going to live and see what day to day life would be like, what his family and his culture would expect of her.

As far as her safety, if he is a man who is in love with her (rather than her ability to get him a Visa) then he will naturally do everything to protect her. That would mean not inviting her to a place that would endanger her in any way, or put her in a situation that would be possibly harmful to her or their relationship.

You are a good friend in wanting to offer her wise counsel. Even if she makes a decision you don't agree with, stick with her and support her because if things don't turn out for the best she'll need you more than ever.

She should travel back and forth to Tunisia first to get a feel for what it is like living there.

For the guy to be interested in an American woman could mean he is not that naive as to the culture and the difference as you think. The question is how familiar is she with his? Also, if she is concerned about a visa issue, she should ask those questions directly.

In general though marriage of any kind is a challenge if the person is not marrying for the right reason and or communicate the differences and issues they will face.

I do believe however that true love can take you anywhere and with anyone. I am an example of an internet relationship turned into marriage now 9yrs and with a different culture and religion...so it can happen, she just has to be careful, communicate and lay it out all on the table before they take the plunge. That is common to any relationship.

I was married to a foreigner, whose family was religiously and socially different than mine. It is very hard. And he was only from across the border in Canada. Politically we were in tune. He was and is a very good father.
However, it was not easy. We were divorced. He still lives in the USA.
Imagine you go to a culture where women are not valued. Have little freedom and are at the mercy of their husband's family.
Whether you marry a Mexican and live in Mexico or a Muslim you will never ever be a free woman. Lots of European women have tried it even with educated men and lived to regret it. Your friend has stars in her eyes and fluff in her head.
Give her a copy of Not Without My Daughter to read. She will deny that he would ever do that to her. While they live here he won't.
I adore cultures and countries outside the USA but not in my bed and not in theirs.

My brother was married to a woman from Singapore, a muslim. She apparently wanted the marriage to get her visa. They have a son together and my brother is now very fearful that she will take him back to her country. He would never get to see his son again, if that happens. She would hide him among her family and friends there and my brother would spend great deals of money that he doesn't have to try and find him.

My brother tried to convert to Muslim and followed all of the laws for many years, but his wife (who wasn't very religious when she first met my brother and moved here) still wasn't satisfied. We tried to get my brother to hold off but my ex-SIL was pushing for marriage and my bro wasn't thinking straight...

Just get your friend to do her due diligence about what to expect if she converts, moves, or stays here and marries him. Get her to do some research and as a friend, do some for her. She might not like hearing it, but you do have her best interests at heart because you love her.

No matter what... as a woman, and later as a "Mom" who has children with a Man.... do you, EVER... want to "give up" yourself, who you are, what you are, your own values/beliefs/culture/country, submerging yourself and making your happiness... secondary?

Even if he is Tunisian or another culture.... cultural differences...are VERY.... nice or oppositional... to who you are as a person, intrinsically.

I am married to a man of another country and culture.
I am a local born person of Hawaii.
Even if, we both reside here, in the USA.... in Hawaii... there are MANY MANY MANY... cultural differences and conflicts... of which it is either superficial or deep seated differences, and a 2 whole different sets... of cultural ETHOS... and attitudes.
And... it depends on... how FLEXIBLE your Spouse is... in reflection to yourself and as a woman. Respect. And ACCULTURATION... MUST OCCUR ON BOTH SIDES... BOTH Spouses.
Otherwise... there will be... conflicts. Either minor funny conflicts or the kind that is always a monkey on your back.

Sure, for love.
But.. you need to look at it... from all sides.
And, cultural and ETHNIC differences... are intrinsic to a person.
It is their make-up. It does not change much.
AND, if she goes there... she will NOT have her own family/relatives/friends.... that she is used to and she will NOT have a support system. She will be... one among "his" culture and ethnic, groups.
An Outsider.

I would... hesitate.
Personally.
Personally... even if my Husband is of European culture... I had been there enough, and in 'his' realm... to know deep inside myself.. that I would not go there and move and give up everything I know... to 'become' that of which his culture would 'expect' me to, become.
I am not, that person.
I am, myself. Even if I am, very culturally aware.
I majored in Anthropology.
I understand all the nuances of any meshing or not, of cultural or ethinic groups.
It is not, for the faint hearted.

Remember: SHE has to fit in with him AND them (his culture) AND fit in with his family... AND they do NOT, have to fit in, with her or to her or with what she wants.

AND: Key Point Here-- WHAT IF... she does not like it there, cannot adjust, cannot acculturate, is miserable, and wants to come back?? Can she? Will he come back too? Will he let her? And if she has children... SHE CANNOT BRING HER KIDS BACK WITH HER traveling along with them, unless she has his consent or signature or it is notarized etc.

IF SHE HAS CHILDREN.... personally, I would want to give birth here, in her home country. Then they will be USA citizens. This is not for "national" preferences... but that, IF she ever has a divorce or custody issues.... being in her home country, of which she AND her children would be citizens... would be best. For her.

Many people when they live here in the USA, they are very, much more, cosmopolitan and individual. But if/when they go back and live in their country of birth... they can revert back to much more 'traditional' roles and attitudes and expectations... upon, a woman.
There are country perspectives of woman... and then there are the individual attitudes toward it, and then there are the Familial expectations.. of a woman's 'role' in the family and clan.
So, there are MANY layers... of what a woman is, in a culture. Some more so than others. And it is accepted or not.

She.... will have to... very much acculturate 'into' his culture and ethnic background. And who knows, what those 'expectations'...will be, onto her. In addition to 'his' expectations of it and how she should be out of respect for "his" culture... there will ALSO be expectations of her In-Laws... too. Upon her.

People are nice. But sometimes, things are different, when you are someone else's, Spouse, in any said, cultural and ethnic, group.
Friends...are not Spouses. Thus, friends are always nice.
But you are not their Spouse.

Again, even for myself, my Husband and I are of 2 different cultures and countries and ethnicities... and, it can be very hard. And we are in the USA.
Just today, we had a blow up... and it all stems, from his and my, perspective of womanhood/motherhood/individuality, etc.

Personally: per your friend, it is not wise... to "give up her life in the states to go be with him."
It is not about his nationality or ethnicity... it is about, her blindly giving up herself... for him. That is a problem. Or can be.
With any culture or country, as an outsider.

It will go without saying... that IF she marries and moves there... she WILL be giving up a lot. And she may not be able, to come back and forth, very often. Will he let her travel?
Will her family go there to visit her? Will it be allowed? What about her children if she has any?

Even if MY husband is very culturally open and has lived here for MANY years... he still has a hard time, with the cultural ethos of his culture and mine. He finds women here... SOOOO independent and vocal and opinionated. It is NOT like that... where he is from, nor how he was raised. So, it can be a problem. Not just a one time problem.

So. There will be many things, she will have to deal with.
AND the question will be: CAN SHE, or is she ABLE... to acculturate totally.... AND 'give up' herself.... for love and to marry this man? Of which, she knows nothing of his culture or ethnicity or ethos... nor of his family and the cultural roles there of the society. And, what are the perspectives of child rearing?? Or of religion?
AND... can she, really.... be at peace with that... and how she will live?

Being 'sweet', just doesn't cut it.
Being in love just doesn't cut it.
It is naive.
"Giving up her life in the States..." for this man, or any man... is very, naive.

No woman, should ever have to give up her own country or life or individuality or her own family or relatives or religion.... unknowingly.
And, if she ever has children... will she even have rights... to her children? This will no be her country. She will not have any backup help. If their marriage, suffers.

IF she gets married, she should do it IN the USA. Or, she may not have marriage rights. Or maybe the USA will not recognize her 'marriage', ? She has to find that out. What are the marriage laws there? She should not sign or do anything, unless she KNOWS with 120% clarity, what is going on.
WHY is she considering marrying in her boyfriend's country?
Is he trying to convince her?????
How long has she been with him?
Does HER family, know him?
They should.
If she has children with him: WHO has custody? After a certain age of the child, the Husband, has custody etc. For example.
"Custody laws" are not the same, as in the USA.
She has to know, that.

Read this:
http://www.law.emory.edu/ifl/legal/tunisia.htm
http://blog.classifieds1000.com/Tunisia/tunisia_marriage/...

Can she speak his language AND is she fluent?
Did she research, marriage laws in that country?
Did she research, child custody in that country?
Did she research, if divorce is allowed and how?
Did she research, her giving up everything and renouncing her life, for him?
Did she speak with her family about it? She should.
Did she speak with any government agency here, to learn about it?

There are the cultural and ethnic differences, and then there are the religious differences, and differences in how to raise children. And the perspectives, toward that.
It is not, homogeneous, with her upbringing.
She also has to consider, 'citizenship' factors. Will she need to give up her American citizenship, at some point? If she marries there and lives there and to be considered a citizen, there?
Or can she have, dual citizenship?
This is about immigration laws, for her, since she is currently, an American citizen but may marry, a person of another country. And marry him, in his home country.
Many things to consider...... and can she pick and choose, what 'she' decides to give up?
And... what does her Boyfriend, want?
In contrast to what she wants or knows?

It depends on a lot of factors. Like how she knows this man. Does he live here in the states and has she spent a sufficient ammount of time getting to know him? I know that last one doesn't matter because you could know someone 1 day and have a lifelong love or know someone years and never really know them, but you get my drift. If she only knows him over the internet/mail etc then I would worry that she is willing to move to another country.In many islamic countries when you go there and marry a man your citizenship automatically switches to that of said country, and then she may not have the right to leave without her husbands permission. Which of course would be bad especially if things went bad.

Now, if she really knows and loves this man, and he her then I think they could have a beautiful life together! It is just so hard to answer without knowing more about the situation. I dated a man from Iraq, we started dating right as Bush invaded Iraq, so you can imagine how worried my friends were..LOL. He was a nice guy, he was actually a refugee etc, long story. I met many of his friends here and they were very nice, respectful of me and treated me like a sister from the first time I met them. I hope she has met a good decent man!!

I would personally be very worried about all the political uprisings.. Tunisia is not in a good spot right now.. It's one thing that she has found someone from a different culture and she wants to move to be with him.. that is her decision you can always give your concern if she has thought through her decision.. but I would seriously be worried about the political climate.. All of these uprisings you see going on started in Tunisia.. I would stay very far away from that region as a whole right now.

Has your friend traveled a lot around the world? Does she have any idea about living conditions or laws in other countries? My husband travels a lot around the world and he visits US and other embassies often when he travels. In those Arab/Muslim countries he sees many women (with and without children) crying on the steps of embassies (some escaped their homes to get there) to get protection, to file paperwork for their kids or to get them back, to get back their passports that their husbands and his relatives locked or destroyed, you get the picture.... Many (I should say most, because once you are on the extremist country's territory - their laws apply, it makes no difference what is your citizenship) cannot be helped... they cry and wail and one time my husband saw a woman get dragged away by the husband? and he was kicking her and yelling at her and no one even moved a finger...
Myself, when i was younger, dating, it was a taboo for me (self imposed) to even date (or even chat friendly, because you never know where that may be going) outside my race or religion. I never regretted that. I travel with my husband sometimes (to where it is safe for a woman to go) and I get the feeling many times while interacting with these man that makes my skin crawl, behind their civilized smiles and faces - they are very predatory and condescending to females.
I think you friend is in love so misses all the signs that already there. Advise her to date him here. Date, not marry, and see how long that would last, and NO children...

Go send her the DVD 'Not without my daughter' with Sally Fields.....
That might wake her up a bit... It is based on a true story of an American woman who also married an Islamic man. They seemed to have the perfect marriage when they were together in the U.S.A., then he asked that she and their daughter they had together come visit his family for a short visit in the middle east. She was so hesitant to go, but he insisted in such a sweet way that her fears were unfounded. She ended up going, and the nightmare to follow - the way he turned on her and did a 180 and now he wasn't the kind sweet husband she once knew. She was a prisoner, mentally and physically abused by him - and she was locked away without her daughter in a room, never to speak to anyone. Going there was the biggest mistake of her life - marrying him too. I won't spoil the rest of the story, but the reason I say watch this (to her) is that it is a reality that MANY women are facing. I would never recommend a Christian marrying a Muslim - the extremist Muslim population hates Americans, we are the infidels and are to be wiped off the face of the earth by any means possible. I also wouldn't recommend a strong Christian marry someone of any other faith, as the clash between beliefs and the children born into the marriage will suffer, with confusion and one parent trying to dominate the children to believe in 'their' religion - so I am not recommending this, and think people should marry someone of their own faith, who they share similar values and beliefs with.

I travel the world and have lived overseas many times. I don't have a problem with an American marrying any foreigner as long as they are not Muslim or living in the middle east. If someone foolishly disregards this, then their reality is exactly what happened in the movie I described - its a gamble that someone should not take.

The first two links are the DVD and the book, you need to get her, send her the articles below as well - she has NO idea what life she has in store for herself if she lives there.....

http://www.amazon.com/Not-Without-Daughter-Sally-Field/dp...

http://www.amazon.com/Not-Without-Daughter-Betty-Mahmoody...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunisian_Islamic_Front

http://protectthepope.com/?p=2541

http://digitaljournal.com/article/312535

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZhKisvo1WQ8

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindian...