Flags

Gamma wrote: >>Having slaves in America wasn't a problem and it was a means to an end to make a lot of money.<<

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I know I must be misunderstanding this in some way. Having slaves wasn't a problem? For who? Does that mean that if somebody OWNED YOU you'd be fine with it?

And the confederate flag is certainly something to be ashamed of, it's a symbol of treason against the USA. Yes, private citizens can choose whether or not to fly it. Yes, companies can choose whether or not to sell it. But it doesn't belong on government property.

I don't know of any loser in a conflict that's allowed to fly their flag.
The flag of the Nazi's is banned in Germany.
The Confederate States was a country that lasted about 4 years and it failed 150 yrs ago.
Confederate money is worth nothing.
It belongs in a museum and nowhere else.

I'm a southerner and I see it as a sign of racism. My thoughts are... the southerners who are upset because they see it as a symbol of the south/history...Don't they realize EVERYONE ELSE sees it as a sign of bigotry, hatred, and racism? I would be horribly embarrassed to display that flag. Why are they not embarrassed when by putting it up surely they know that the rest of the world assumes they are a racist jerk? I am so happy to see that stores are refusing to sell it and buildings are taking it down. It's long past time.

i think that when states *use* the confederate flag (flying it over buildings and such) they're perpetuating ugliness and hatred. there's no way that flag should be 'officially' anything at all.
stores who want to manufacture and sell them should be permitted to do so. people who want to fly it on their own homes or paste it across their bigass trucks or whatever should be allowed to do so.
i like to see bigotry front and center so i can easily avoid it.
khairete
S.

ETA: Gamma, your sweet innocence on this site is normally kind of charming, but your response on this question is naive at best and infuriating at worst. And Jackie P., Obama didn't cause racism - the flare up is a result of a black man in the White House and people (like you) showing what they really believe underneath it all. Even people who didn't vote for him can't believe the backlash, from Congress to Main Street. And those Clinton buttons you refer to were not ever manufactured or distributed with the endorsement of the campaign. Check your facts from real newspapers: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2015/06/22...

Original post: If it's a "Southern symbol", it's for white southerners only. It doesn't represent black southerners at all. So the very claim that it represents "The South" is just a denial of its original intent as well as its current use to exclude and to venerate a very dark time in our history.

People have the right to display flags and bumper stickers and tee shirts with any symbol they want, although schools that ban clothing with swear words, drug references, and so on will probably ban this as well (and rightfully so). Several states have made moves to take the flag off license plates too, along with other state properties and official buildings. I expect this will spread.

Stores? They can sell what they want, and I will support or boycott stores based on that, as I already do. I don't shop at Walmart anymore anyway, and while this is a step in the right direction, I'm not yet convinced that it's anything but a PR stunt because they're already under fire for their personnel policies. So, watch and wait. Amazon took it off, but after a 2300% (yes you read that right) increase in sales of flags. I don't buy from them anyway because they've made a fortune off Nazi flags and paraphernalia too. So I'll wait and see if they donate the proceeds from those flags to someplace like the Southern Poverty Law Center or the NAACP. I don't support anyone who excludes others, so I don't set foot in Hobby Lobby and I don't give to the Salvation Army or the Boy Scouts.

I would never walk into a home that displayed the flag, and I would never ride in a car that had that bumper sticker. I would not work for someone who wore it on a belt buckle. Do they have the right to display it? Sure. I hate it, but they have the right. There are businesses that have banned guns from their premises - Starbucks customers, Uber riders, among others, have said "no guns welcome here." That's also a safety concern than a purely political statement, but they are willing to take an economic hit for their stance. Good for them.

I think government buildings have to include all citizens. I know that many Southerners just don't understand how others feel about this flag because it's a part of their own upbringing. I think there are racists who fly that flag, and I think there are otherwise good people who are just unclear and bewildered by the opposition. I think it's the same sort of oblivion that makes otherwise good Christians totally baffled by and upset about not putting Christmas trees in town buildings or public schools. They aren't trying to be mean - they simply don't understand that not everyone is represented by that symbol and that it's exclusionary. Like anything else, if you walk a mile in someone's shoes….

Like the swastika, the Confederate flag belongs in museums and history books. I DO feel that the ancient swastika, a Sanskrit symbol of cultural significance in India and neighboring countries, can continue to be displayed. It was their symbol before Hitler stole it. So I don't have a problem there. But it's not on red flags or armbands or accompanying any other symbols of Nazi hatred and genocide. But it's illegal to display it anywhere in Germany because the government has said "Never again" and faced the ugly past. Maybe Southerners would do similar self-examination and look at the legacy and shameful past they are trying to ignore.

I think it should be relegated to a museum. To me flying a Confederate flag at a courthouse is the same as flying a swastika in public places in Germany. The Confederate flag shouldn't still be flying in public places.

You can't stop what people do on their personal property. If someone flies a Confederate flag on their home, it's alerts others to their bigotry.

From what I understand, the flag was raised over SC in the 60's as a giant middle finger of defiance after Brown v. Board.

It should be taken down. Can people display it on their own if they want? Yes, because it is freedom of expression and their right. However, if I was hiring a babysitter or contractor and saw that on a bumper sticker? No thanks, I'll go for someone else. I'm not down for what it stands for.

ETA: I think throwing things like vegetarians/vegans, people who don't like offensive language, etc into the mix is NOT the same thing. People are killed because of racism. There is serious hate because of racism. There is a huge divide in this country because even though we are all supposed to be equal, the reality is that we are not all treated that way. To just toss these subjects into the same category and say "well what's next then" is ridiculous.

Should people be able to own and display these flags? Sure. That way the rest of us will know who the racists and bigots are so we can avoid them at all costs.

I think if a person or institution is not ashamed to fly a confederate flag it says a great deal without saying anything.

Well all I know is that the confederate army had a lot of different flags, the O. that the KKK uses is a battle flag. It is the O. that is the most recognizable, and not for good reasons.

It is very offensive because it is used to terrorize Black Americans.

Any time I see it flying, hanging or on a vehicle, it gives me chills, because I cannot think of even O. positive about it.

Put it in museums and let us never forget our history, the good , the bad and the ugly. We must do better in the future.

Well, I was listening to a lady on the radio today who was a professor of black history, and she said that that particular confederate flag used by the crazy murderer had become a symbol used by the anti-civil rights movement in the 60s, and thus of anti-integration. Symbols can change over time, and this O. means something particularly abhorrent to some loonies.

It isn't just a symbol of the south, it's a representation of an ugly history that still lurks in the hearts and minds of looney people. Racism isn't dead. It's very much alive, in our institutions and in careless thought that thinks a symbol of a racist past isn't offensive.

I stopped shopping at Walmart over a decade ago for political economic reasons. When I heard they sold the confederate flag, it just confirmed what I already knew: Walmart needs to go.

With all that said, Walmart can sell whatever it wants, and I could care less about what flag a southern state hangs on its buildings. I don't plan on ever moving to such a state, but I'm all for letting the residents of a state make their own decisions.

This debate just confirms why I will never live in the south.

Flags hold a lot of symbolic meaning. That's why armies fight so hard to protect it during battle and it's treated with such reverence in other ceremonial instances. The meaning of the Confederate flag has gone from symbolizing a separate nation to symbolizing a way of life that enslaved an entire race of people. If it didn't, why do the white power groups embrace it?
The flag should come down and be nothing more than a historical relic, much like the Nazi flags and emblems.

Yes, people have the right to their individual free speech. If they want to display a symbol of slavery and support of segregation or hang a swastika - it is their right. It is what we tolerate in order to protect free speech for us all. It just sadly makes the ugliness of people obvious on the outside. And of course the Confederate battle flag is a symbol of racism and slavery. There is no way either state or the federal governments should engage in this sort of hate speech.

@ Jackie P - It turns out is is legal to burn the American flag. It is PROTECTED SPEECH. Part of the Bill of Rights. I suspect if you wish to burn a copy of the Constitution you can go right ahead. Knocking down the Statue of Liberty - falls more under destruction of property which is not ok. Also - the battle flag of the Confederacy in its original incarnation stands for TREASON. If this is a value you wish to support - I suppose it is your right.

@ Gamma - I suppose if you were a slave owner, slavery might not have been a big problem for you. Unless you were a moral human being. And of course unless you actually were a slave. Perhaps I am misunderstanding what you wrote, but if not I am seriously horrified.

The United States has gone bat sh&t crazy.

Seems like many people are LOOKING for reasons to get offended and make laws so as not to offend people..

The Confederate Flag is part of our US History. Don't like it? Fine. LEARN FROM IT...don't "remove" it because it doesn't blow smoke up your skirts and make you 'feel' happy. Sometimes HISTORY SUCKS!! There's no flag for the holocaust victims.

Here in VA - McAuliffe (the liberal wimp) is phasing out the Confederate Flag plates and DEMANDING that EVERYONE who has them be removed within 120 days.

Did ANYONE EVER stop to THINK? Really. People. It's a FLAG. What does it represent to you? What does it mean to you? Did you stop to THINK (instead of "feel") that people fly the flag for their relatives who fought in the war?

DO you honestly believe that REMOVING the flag is going to STOP or CHANGE anything? No. It won't. It won't change history.

This is wrong. It's a violation of our First Amendment rights.

I'm not sure if I think it should be outlawed for private display (yes it should be banned on public buildings). In a way I like to see who the creeps are, not drive them underground. We have some flags on houses in our town which is super annoying. But I don't think all people who have flown it are creeps. Until now, many people didn't know the true history of that flag, and it has been regarded as a quaint country thing for a long time. Even I just ignored it and didn't get upset when I saw it.

Remember when a lot of early punks wore swastikas? not just Nazi Punks, but the ones trying to be generally rebellious with it, and then they quit once they realized..It's like that. Schools have not taught the history behind it.

Now people are learning. And now there is no excuse to fly it. Part of me wants to let people fly it in a free country, but then again, I hate that they can. Because multiracial citizens have to see it. And those citizens aren't flying "I Hate White People" flags in their yards. In my town anyway. I hate the feeling that even though I see O. of those flags and cringe, it looks like the whole town supports that racist in flying that flag. Symbols of hate have no good reason to be displayed.

Its a flag, the feelings behind why someone flies it should be of more concern than the flag itself. To me it is no different than swear words, they can be said in anger and be hurtful, you could be just joking with friends and they don't. It isn't the word, it is the feelings behind the use.

Not sure if that makes sense but there you are
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Okay folks, I wish to point you to Gamma's response. If this flag is wiped off the face of the earth is her post any less offensive? I am getting kind of tired of this Barney nation where rather than say hey, that person is offensive we claim an object or a word they used was offensive. It is okay to say Gamma's attitude towards slavery is offensive, we don't have to blame a flag. We can say this terrorist is offensive, evil, lacks any human qualities, we don't have to blame a flag because in the end it doesn't make things better, it doesn't change his feelings, if the flag never existed he would still hate, he would have still killed.

"Having slaves wasn't a problem"?!?!?!
Oh my god. I just threw up a little in my mouth. It's bad enough you even had that thought, but you actually weren't even ashamed to express it.

No comment. Afraid to make a comment. I detest racism and slavery, and I'm southern.

Not sure why we have a First Amendment any more . . .

I am a Southerner born in the North. Moved to the South when I was four. I am also early 40s. My friends and I were discussing and we see it as a southern symbol - a la Dukes of Hazard! I see no reason why O. shouldn't be able to display it or buy it.

Honestly, instead of blaming what happened in Charleston on a flag we should be talking about why it happened - it wasn't because of a flag or because of a gun. It was because a young man is very mentally ill - and we have proof of that.

We also discussed how many things are being attributed to race relations these days. We had all hoped that with President Obama in office race relations would become better but we do not view that as the case. If anything, the comments that President Obama has made regarding Ferguson, Trayvon Martin, Charleston, etc. have made things worse - not better.

Thoughts on race relations 2000 to the present?

Let me put in a thought or two here...

First - how many were offended when the Clinton/Gore campaign used a modified "rebel" flag?

eta - yet they have neither confirmed or denied last I saw online -- however, he DID sign a bill about the AR flag - and it's nod to the Confederate O., so - does that mean AR needs to change it's flag?

etaa - LOL - go for it, but you are off-track

Second - is anyone offended when persons from other countries (whether here legal or not) fly their country's flag here?

Third - what about Native Americans? Think they might be a bit offended by our American flag (looking at how they have also been treated)?

this issue is raised due to charleston murders. i believe south carolina people (all races) should have a say in this issue. no O. else.