Challenging Bed Time with 3 Year Old

I with a couple of the others- 7 is very early. Esp with Daylight Savings Time. Try starting the bedtime routine a little later by 15 minutes and extend it to where they are in bed by 8.
My advice, while you may not like it, is to give them separate bedrooms. If it's not working, it's just not working. And it's not really fair to the other child to have to put up with the drama at night- that's not really bonding. Then focus on a more tag team approach with bedtime- dad takes one and you take the the other. Books, cuddle/hugs/kisses for a minute or two, leave the room. Switch and go to the other room, kiss, goodnight, and out.
This whole routine sounds overly complicated and it just doesn't have to be. They are both at an age where they should be able to fall asleep on their own without you. That might be better accomplished in separate quarters.

So, let me understand this...
When he doesn't settle down into bed at light's out, you send him to wait in the hall until you get the older sibling asleep, and then "when he is ready" he comes and gets in bed quietly and you proceed to rub his back, etc as usual?

Umm.. no. That wouldn't happen at my house. I understand you don't want to disrupt the older sib, but your younger one knows it and is using it to manipulate things. If he doesn't settle right down and gets to go to the hallway while you rub brother's back, then come back on his own time when he is ready... you simple leave when you are done with the brother. The younger one has now forfeited his time with you sitting in there in the dark.
The end.
Yeah... he will pitch a fit. Let him. Just be sure that you warn him in advance what the new "routine" will be: He can't settle down before you are done with brother, then he doesn't get to have you rub his back or sit in the room. You are leaving the room and not going back in when you are done with brother.

Personally, I would be trying to wean them off of needing you to sit in there with them for 20 minutes after lights out anyway. They have each other. That is supposed to be one of the "benefits" of room sharing--the kids aren't alone. So why do you have to be in there, too?

Taking away privileges from the toy room doesn't work b/c it isn't related to the problem. If this were a one-off and son just wasn't sleepy then no big deal... but this has BECOME the routine. So you need to change it. Make the correction fit the dilemma. He won't settle down. So, either he chooses to do so on YOUR schedule, or he does it without you there. Period.

Or, maybe do him first, and let the older one have the extra 5 minutes before he has to be "settled". Or wait until the weekend, and let the older one stay up later and the younger one has an earlier bedtime by 30 minutes from now on. My kids pretty much had 30 minutes bedtime difference, with 3 years between them. They got story time together and prayers, and then I put the younger one to bed and then the older one. He got to look at books or something quietly in his room until the younger one was in bed. But they had separate rooms. So, let the older one have some quiet time with the other parent while you get the younger one down first. Once he understands he isn't running the show anymore, you can do them "together" but still "do" the younger one first.... so if he regresses and doesn't settle down, you do the older one and leave.
You shouldn't have to spend an hour PAST bedtime getting them down for the night.

Usually, a well placed 'threat' to lose mom/dad time after lights out works well. But you have to be prepared to follow through or they will see it as an empty threat (it will be, then) and ignore it.

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ETA: You know, I didn't really note the bedtime. But our kids usually went to bed at 7:00 when they were 2. By the time they were 3 and up, they were going to bed at 7:30. So adjusting the overall bedtime might be something you could do to change things, too. It might solve it, it might not.

Taking away privileges in the toy room is a punishment, not a consequence because it's unrelated to the original action. It's an important distinction. Also, given that you're trying to get him to go to sleep - it's likely that he's losing privileges the next day, right? Which is too long between action and punishment to be effective.... when they are that young they can't really connect things that far apart. So, then all you have is an angry kid the next day with no toys.... and an angry kid at bedtime with no sleep...... this is likely escalating the sleeping issue.

What time do they get up? It's possible that your younger son isn't actually tired at 7. Does he still nap? My daughter drops naps around 2 and would not for the life of her go to sleep before 10. To this day (and she's 12) she goes to sleep around 10:30 and wakes up, on her own, around 6. When she was younger I talked to her daycare and also her pediatrician..... they indicated that if she was not cranky when she woke up and didn't get tired / sluggish throughout the day it was possible that was just how much sleep she needed.

So - for day care, we had to teach her "quiet time" during nap. She had to sit on her mat.... no moving off the mat for any reason. She had 3 flip / touch books that she could 'read" as well as her bear that she could rock or pat the back of the bear. As long as she was on the mat doing a silent activity that counted as "nap time".

I would suggest doing the same thing at night. He can't disturb his brother. Instead of sleeping, though, he can do silent time. You don't stay in the room, but you need to be able to monitor to make sure that he is staying in bed and not bothering his brother.

7 pm, seems pretty early. What time do they have to wake up in the morning? Is your 3 yer old still getting a nap? What time is he napping till? How many hours?

Maybe the 3 year old should not nap as long or as late into the day?
Maybe move the bedtime to 7:30.

Also this last weekend was a time change so that messes with our bodies..

Make sure in the afternoon they are getting lots of running around time outside. Children have a tremendous amount of energy, if they do not burn it up.. it makes them feel like running around the block a few times. It can make them antsy..

Unless you guys get up around 5am why are they going to bed so soon. They are old enough to go to bed even as late as 9pm, if they get up by 7am that's over 10 hours of sleep, about their needed amount.

To me that is the simple answer, they aren't tired so they don't want to go to bed....that's all there is to it for me. They are not old enough to make themselves lay there until they finally fall asleep, they want to be kids and up playing and watching TV.

Aside from the fact 7 is early for a 3 1/2 or 5 1/2 y/o to go to bed (unless you need them up at 5 am,) why are you sitting with them and rubbing their backs to settle them down? Self-soothing should have been introduced to them as babies, so they could be put to bed and left to go to sleep on their own. Is this time for you to spend with them, to feel connected? If so just spend that amount of time cuddling them before going to their room for bed.

Bedtime routines should last no more than 30 minutes tops. So they should take their bath, get in pj's, brush their teeth, have a story, say good night, go to bed, you leave the room, all in less then 30 minutes. If they can't take shorter baths consider showers.

My suggestions, from experience - 1) start putting your younger son to bed at least 30 minutes before big brother. It isn't fair to him that younger brother is causing a ruckus so he learns to be tolerant, not at bedtime. You and dad can switch off which child you put to bed each night. 2) Start weaning or stopping the back rubbing, it's adding to your being in their room, and isn't needed. Also don't sleep on his floor waiting for him to settle down, he's still getting his way, figuring he'll settle down when he wants, not when mom or dad leave. 3) Don't put him in the hallway when he yells, say good night and leave, you're done. By putting him in the hallway you unwittingly give him what he wants, to stay up longer. Simply explain ahead of time that he goes to bed, no fuss, or you leave and he still has to go to bed, without you there to read to him or tuck him in. That will be a true consequence he can see in real time.

If their bedtime(s) are giving them no more time in bed than they need just up the younger one's. Turn off all TV's and electronics at dinnertime, also dim lights in the bathroom and bedroom, and quiet everything down. No exciting activities or horseplay, either. You are setting the mood for sleep. Make sure your son is getting plenty of physical exercise in the afternoon so his warm bath or shower helps relax his tired body. Switching the routine around and sticking to it should help cut your time spent fighting with him...if not you may need to separate them so big brother can have peace, at least a couple of years. Which would be sad, they would lose their nighttime buddy, each other.

My preschoolers don't go to bed that early, or anywhere near it, but they do sleep in in the mornings, so I'm not sure it's a fair comparison. 3-year-olds need between 11 and 13 hours a of sleep a day, so you might look at when your child wakes up and if he naps (as other posters suggested). It really depends on the child, too. My son needed only 10-11 hours from a fairly young age, and my daughter is a lazy lunk like her mother and can sometimes cram 14-16 hours of sleep into a day, especially if she's had a busy day. Also, make sure you're being really active during the day, as these cold days inside often lead to kids who haven't had the chance to run around enough to go to sleep on time.

Something that we do is we allow our children to read - in bed - for as long as they like. We go through the whole bedtime routine, put the kids in bed, put 4-5 books on their bedside table, and turn off the overhead lights. Each child has a little bedside lamp (my daughter - 2.5 years old - just got hers and was so excited to be old enough to do this) and they can turn on the lamps and read to their hearts content. They are not allowed to have any toys besides their lovies, and they cannot get out of bed.

My son (age 4) uses this to fall asleep on a near-daily basis. He's always asleep with his bedside light off by the time I check on him an hour or so later, but I can tell by the redistribution of the books that he was reading them. Our daughter only does this on rare occasions when she is struggling to sleep, and tends to fall asleep with the light on and a book covering her tummy. Everyone needs to wind down for bed, but we all do it differently. You might see if quiet individual reading prevents the tension at bedtime, even if he still stays up for an additional hour.

Good luck.

ETA: Taking away toy-room privilege is not an appropriate consequence for a 3-year-old for a variety of reasons, including that it is not in any way related to your son's offense, and your son is most likely too young to make the connection that something he did the night before is causing this punishment now.

What time do they get up, like 5 am? That would be 10 hours of sleep right there.
My kids NEVER went to bed as early as 7, even as infants. That just seems WAY early. Do you also go to sleep when it's still light out?
My kids pretty much went to sleep when they went to bed because it was night time and they were tired.
Sorry, just trying to get my brain around this.

3 is a hard age.
Both your kids.... are different developmentally. So keep that in mind.
And cognitively they are different too.
And per imaginations and tolerances.

All I know is, when I was a kid I used to have to share the room with my older sibling. I HATED it.
It was awful.
It was just NOT a peaceful nice atmosphere. My sibling just had a vibe about her.... which was not conducive for anything, to me.
It did not make us closer or bond.
Finally, my parents let us have our own room.

Anyway going back, when my son was 3, he went through a bit of a bedtime phase too. But we didn't battle about it. I then used to talk with him, chat in the dark, let him express himself to me and tell me stories. Let him tell me "his" side of things and how he perceives things etc. That settled him. He "needed" that at that age and phase. He was frustrated with certain things, about his older sibling etc. He even told me once, that "I am just a little boy." And my daughter would tell me that too... once long ago when she was that age.
*I* learned from, them.
Again, we did not and do not, battle...about bedtimes.
But I know each of my child's cues and needs.
Each child, is different.

I'm wondering, if he truly isn't ready to fall asleep. That seems SO early for bed time. I can't imagine putting my son to bed so early. What time does he have to get up? Is it possible he just hasn't had enough time to get his energy out? Does he get to play outside? What about the summer? Do they ever get to play or do fun things? Sorry to ask so many questions, 7:00 pm seems so extreme to me! (Depending on when they get up, of course.)

We did struggle with my son and realized he simply didn't need a nap anymore. Does your son still nap? Can you cut that out, or make it shorter?

We have a similar situation, although ours don't share a bedroom and they go to bed around 8-8:30. I know how you're feeling. Three year olds are at the age where they're just beginning to understand what's expected, yet also need to explore their independence. I wish I had some advice for you, but I still spend that "wasted" hour with mine. She seems to crave that sense of security. It won't last forever. Hang in there. The other suggestions posted are good ones, so give them a try. Good luck, you're not alone! :)

He is a toddler.I went though this.I don't wanna be mean but this is what my family told me to do.(Mine was 4 1/2) so we would say if your not going to bed play in your room quietly.And i would shut the door.Of course i would give them a limits to when they go to bed ,and i would tuck them in.Or just talk to them or time -out/

I would also agree that 7pm is early, but if your 5yr old is going to bed at that time, I guess it works for you.

I would definitely not "waste" that time with your 3 yr old. You have your routine...stick with it. What works with our 3.5 yr old is telling her that she doesn't have to "sleep" but she does have to stay in her bed. She can "read" or play quietly with her stuffed animals. I also tell her that she MUST be quiet because we don't want her to wake her younger sister. In your case, you can tell him that he must not wake his older brother.

Don't put him in the hall. That's just "extra" play time for him. And don't sit in the room with him either. They get the 5-10 minutes, and that's it. If that's too hard for you and your boys, slowly shorten the amount of time that you sit with them.

It will be hard at first. And they will argue/struggle/whine/etc. Stick to your plan :)

I just wanted to say that I do not think 7pm is too early at all; my kids (ages almost 5 and 20 months) go to bed around 7 and it works well. My older son gets easily over tired and the later he goes to bed the earlier he wakes up. If he goes to bed much past 7 he'll be up before 6! So don't worry about that, and that wasn't your question anyway!!

Now about the behavior, I haven't had this exact experience myself but I was just yesterday talking with a friend at a play date about a very similar issue she is having. What she does is she has a "consequence bed" (its a toddler mattress on the floor) in their office and if one of the kids who are sharing a room will not settle down, she makes that one sleep in the "consequence bed." there are no toys in there, no brother to talk to, and they know that it is a consequence for misbehavior. Also this way she doesn't have to worry about one keeping the other up and doesn't have to stay there to oversee - the one who is misbehaving has to go to the other bed, they close the door, and that's it.

So I don't know if you have a space for this, or an extra toddler mattress lying around, but might be something to think about. The play room probably would not work for this; that might seem like a reward! But if you have another room..I asked my friend if they don't get into stuff they're not supposed to in their office and she said they don't. I think mine would...but somehow hers don't!

good luck!

Is your little guy still napping? We struggled with our daughter's bed time routine until we cut out her nap and she was about 3 1/2. The bedtime routine got much better once we just had some afternoon quiet time vs a full on nap.