9-Yr-old Acting Superior Towards Her Babysitter

Maybe you could try a "restorative justice" approach. Restorative justice gets the people involved together so that they can talk out the issue; it's usually used in schools and police departments as an alternative to more formal punishments, but I think the principles of it work great for communicating between people on issues like yours, too. Here's how it works:
Have your nanny, your daughter, and you all sit down together. First have your daughter tell the group what she has done, which can be as simple as, "i've said rude things to Julie." Also have her say what she was thinking when she said those things, and/or why she said them. You'll have to talk to your daughter before hand and let her know some ground rules, like "I don't know" is not an acceptable answer. Then have Julie say how it makes her feel when your daughter is rude to her. Then you can speak to how you feel, both for your daughter and for Julie, and for yourself, too. Then all of you brainstorm some solutions that will help your daughter repair the harm she has caused to Julie (maybe apologizing, maybe working with Julie on a project together, etc.), as well as some agreements to not speak rudely in the future. Then set some consequences that your daughter will face if she breaks the agreement. You can even write up a contract with the agreements and the consequences and have everyone sign it, if you want. THis process is great for really helping the person responsible understand what their actions have meant to another person, and it is also helpful for the person who has been hurt to understand why the other person acted the way they did. The outcome is usually that the two people get along well together and have a better understanding of each other, which is the end goal, right?
Good luck,
S.

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Her behavior cannot be tolerated and you need to make sure your sitter understands that you don't approve of it.
Send her to time outs or make her stand in a corner for a few minutes every time she is rude to the sitter -- double the time if she complains about it. If she's going to behave like a two-year old the punishment should fit. I also agree with adding chores, but that doesn't have the same effect as a punishment that closely follows the rude behavior. You know her better than anyone -- she needs a punishment that feels like a punishment to her. AND you need some way to reward when she exhibits good manners to the sitter.

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Would it be possible for both you and the sitter to formulate a plan and stick to it together? If for example, your dd says something rude, both you and the sitter act as though she is both invisible and silent. Don't even glance at her. Don't react, don't show your disappointment, simply block her out. Then when she does say something appropriate or polite, both of you smile at her, interact nicely (not really focusing on praising her, but simply acknowledging her). We were taught once that ignored behavior will decrease and rewarded (again, not with a prize but with attention and positive interaction) behavior will continue. But expect your daughter to try louder and ruder behavior while this is working. Continue to completely ignore it and eventually she'll get it. It will take some playacting on your part and the sitter's part, and it's really hard to ignore a screaming child, but it can be done. Step around her as though she were a chair, and concentrate on doing whatever it was you were doing. She may be doing this for your attention, even if it's negative and scolding. So only give her eye contact, conversation, interaction and attention when her behavior meets the standard you've set (in this case, speaking politely to the babysitter).

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I would let her pick her punishment. she knows what she is doing is not kind. I would sit down with her, tell her you love her and that it really disappoints you to see her making the choice to speak unkindly to others and ask her if she knows what you are talking about. she might just say what it is, she might take a little gentle prodding. ask how she thinks it makes Julie feel, and why she would want to make someone feel that way. Tell her the behavior is inappropriate and that there needs to be a consequence and you don't want her to tell you now because you want her to think about it but that you would like her to take a day and come back with some ideas of what would be appropriate punishment if she does this behavior again. also ask her what she thinks Julie should do in the situation when she says something unkind. if she tries to talk about it right then say, sweetie I really want you to take the day to think about this before we talk.
also tell her I don't want you to worry about it (she will worry because you say that) but I'm also taking the day to think about this and don't want to talk about it while I am upset so lets talk about it tomorrow. and if she goes to watch TV or use the computer say, it isn't a punishment but those are privlages and until the two of you talk tomorrow the computer and TV will stay off to give her time to think.
if she complains about it you just say I'm sorry you feel that way, I just want to make sure you think seriously about this situation.
when she comes to the conversation she will either pick a punishment that is too hard, or perhaps lenient. if too hard say I feel that is a bit harsh what about and suggest something you think is fair like no TV time for the day for being disrespectful. if she says something you feel is easy or irrelevant don't shoot it down, say okay and you feel this will fix the problem? because really that is the key--if it will solve the issue it doesn't matter what the "punishment" is. and then the two of you write it down and sign it together and hang it up. Let her explain to Julie what the contract is--which makes it easy for Julie to give her a warning and say I feel that is a violation of your contract your daughter has a chance to apologize or take the consequence. let your daughter know she can come to you about any situation she feels is unfair but not to talk it through with Julie or get defiant but to go to her room and write it down so that you can talk to her about it after work. you will get a feel for what your daughter is frustrated about in the situation this way as well as not make Julie a bad guy or giving your daughter permission to be disrespectful. it also teaches her natural consequences and to take responsibility for herself.
this is my suggestion. make it a positive learning experience not a you are a bad kid type situation. she's a really great kid, just struggling to find some boundaries right now. if she can teach herself boundaries she is so much more prepared for life, its gentle guidance for the boundaries--but giving her the feeling of being in the driving seat.
good luck!

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K. - You should encourage the nanny to stand her ground when your daughter speaks to her this way, even when you are home. Not a fight but she needs to say something along the lines of "I dont appreciate being spoken to in that manner. Either we can fix this now or I'll be speaking with your mother later."

Also I think you should definitely cancel any friend get togethers if her attitude goes by the wayside. I realize you want to encourage her friendships but she must feel a consequence for her behavior. If you tell the other mom, 'we have to cancel because DD's behavior doesnt warrant the privilege of coming over', they will understand and not be offended.

This is a discipline issue but it's also a kindness, forgiveness and respect issue.

Great resources are "Love and Logic" by Jim Fay. "Tearless Discipline" is also good. The tai kwan do idea isnt bad. I've thought about bootcamp myself! :)

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Hi K., Your daughter needs to learn some respect. If she is treating this lady like this when you are around, how is she treating other people when you are not? Have you asked her why she thinks she can do this, why does she not like the lady, perhaps she may be jealous because you and your youngsters have a closer relationship with her?. Whatever the reason she needs to learn it is not acceptable to be rude and demeaning to others. She is more than old enough to have play dates cancelled, regardless of the effect on whomever it was suppossed to be with. Perhaps you could cancel a playdate next time and have her explain to the child/mother why she can't come?

My two girls are no angels but they know very well to mind their manners with other people. I have no hesitation in pulling them up in front of the person if they are rude. A simple 'excuse me?' normally does the trick.

Hopefully, she may grow out of it as she gets older.

Y.

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I'm not sure you need to take things away.

WHY are you using a different babysitter than the one your daughter loves so much? Is your daughter angry/upset about this. Is she comparing Julie to your previous grandma type sitter?

You know, it occurs to me, since this is a baby sitter, it provides obvious time away from you...could Julie have done something OTHER than simply getting lost?? Is is possible you're daughter and your sitter aren't telling you something?

Is she angry with YOU? Is she trying to frustrate your goals because she feels somehow slighted by Mommy?

K. Other that that. Quick and deep response from you is a good idea. I like to also explain to my children how terrible they make themselves look and sound when they degrade others; you can't fling mud without getting mud on yourself.

I really suggest the book: Always an Ally, Never an Adversary www.alwaysanally.com

Encourage Julie to honor the boundaries, to stand up for herself and what is right. If she has been given authority she MUST use it and take it seriously, YOU must take it seriously be fostering it, and THEN your daughter will take it seriously. You're daughter may just think it's silly to have another woman barking out orders when mom is right there. (that is NOT an indication of MY personal feelings)

Also, I never force apologies from my children because I do not believe in telling my children to say something that may not be true. Saying I'm sorry should actually mean I am sorry, it should be an offering of repentant sorrow, not words spit out to appease another party. Likewise, when there is an apology given to me or my children for a clear wrong doing we do NOT say "that's ok" because if it were an apology wouldn't be necessary, we say "I accept your apology". So, I'd suggest doing this with her, too. "I'm sorry" are magical free pass words that allow you do anything, say anything so long as you employ those words.

I'd say, follow your instincts. Whatever you choose may break her little heart for a minute and cause her to say vial little words, but, remember, you're teaching her boundaries that will keep her safe and able to have appropriate relationships which will SAVE her from countless heartbreaking experiences later.

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It gets hard to discipline as they get older.

I have been a nanny for 10 years, and the I have dealt with older children and younger. Let the sitter know you do not approve of your daughters actions. Maybe you could come up with an idea together.

I have read parenting books, and the ones I most agree with are Alfred Adler's he taught them forever ago, but they still work.
Two books I suggest are
"Children:The Challenge" by Rudolf Dreikurs
"Perfect Parenting and Other Myths" by Frank Main

I took parenting classes locally from Vivian Brault
'Tearless' Discipline was the first class I took from her, it is now on DVD and she helped me put the books into practical use.
here is her web site, you may find other ideas.
http://www.tearlessdiscipline.com/

S.
mother to Kai
www.HomeWithKai.com

Hello K.,
Sounds like you have covered the basics with your daughter. I have seen this kind of behavior frequently in girls from 8 to 12 as a teacher. Some ideas:

Work from the positive. Put your daughter on a reward system. Acknowledge that she is taking responsibility, but point out again that there are better ways of doing it. Role play with her how you would like to see her use her instinct for leadership and responsibility. You be her and let her be DD. Go over a couple episodes and demonstrate better ways of handling them. Girls at this age are developing a social awareness and consciousness without having all the skills or tools yet. Your daughter is demonstrating great potentials but needs more skills. Then, when you catch her acting more appropriately with DD, reward her in ways that you have previously discussed--let her give suggestions for how she would like to be rewarded. Read some books with her about human interactions: The Great Gilly Hopkins is a good one. Discuss throughout the book where Gilly is acting appropriately or inappropriately.

So, summarize, recognize that your daughter is showing her potentials as a leader and organizer. Discuss the situation repeatedly with her in a more positive way, "I recognize your ability to take responsibility. Let's talk about ways that work better." Read with your daughter about similar situations. Realize that your daughter is going through a typical stage and needs guidance and encouragement when she does act appropriately.

Best,
G.

Hi K.,

Your approach seems pretty good. I only have a infant, so I can't speak from personal experience, my resource is Barbara Coloroso's "Kids are Worth it!" Rather then rewarding and punishing which puts you in the position of being responsible for your daughter's behavior, she recommends making your daughter accountable to herself. Try talking about a time when someone was rude or mean to your DD and how that made her feel or discuss her mean comments and come-up with some alternative ways for her to voice her opinions without hurting others' feelings. Maybe you could draw some parallels between her former babysitter and Julie to encourage her to have more compassion, or maybe she is taking some insecurities, that should be addressed, out on Julie because she is feeling down about something else in her own life. Good Luck

AH yes, the lecture, in one ear out the other and could be making thing's worse!I agree with you on the whole corporal punishment thing! Something here is amiss and it needs to be solved! Have you heard of love and logic? It's not about "punishment" it's about accountability! You are her mom, hold her accountable! And if play dates are important to her than she should lose them, think about it, she is clearly treating an adult in a rude and disrespectful manner right in front of you! Here is how we do it: We have three containers( one per kid), we have family rules( about 5 or 6, choose what is absolutely the most importnt to you and hubby), if they have an "offense" they get a popcorn kernal( or whatever you have!) in their container, we also use the term energy drain and that is a kernal, absolutely no threats or warnings, and NOOOO lectures! They enjoy no privledges if they have a kernal in their container, no rides, playdates, friends over, this will work! They "pay me back"by doing household chores( my household chores, not theirs, which they already have) It isn't easy and they get very upset but it will work, and I tell you my kids are just so much more pleasurable to be around, we have ALOT less fighting( because that is an energy drain!) All of these ideas about "making her" do this or that, or "not allowing" her to do this or that will be very difficult to enforce and will just cause resentment toward you! This is HER problem! Now she has been allowed to behave this way and you can help solve this but she needs to see how this hurts her, because people will not like her and she will also have a hard time working with people and having other relationships! This is about boundary's, and also it is making your life more difficult, like you said, you really like this woman and she sounds like a treasure! And by the way, if she gets no allowance but gets whatever she wants anyway I can see why she doesn't care about money, you take care of that for her. She needs an allowance so she can learn how to manage money! Please, read the love and logic books, there is alot more I haven't touched on here! And follow through!

I would have another sit down and ask her what is it she dosen't like, if she'd be willing to tell you. Then maybe you can figure things out from there...raising kids is hard work, and they are all sooooooo different! Good luck

K.;

Sounds like the onset of puberty to me. :) Talk to her, find out why she acts that way towards Julie.

I would really define your behavior expectations with DD. Express to her that Julie is in charge, that she will listen, be kind, and respectful.

Set those boundries! Follow through on discipline.

If she continues to be rude to Julie I would have her do some restorative justice activities. Have DD make a nice gift for Julie, clean up after the kids and sitter, have DD write a note to Julie about how her behavior must make the babysitter feel.

Good luck!

Not to be rude but you need to start punishing her. Any child who feels in control enough to treat an adult this way especially in your presence does not respect you, your authority or your sitter. Your going to lose the sitter but you have already lost control of your daughter. Tae kwon do will not get that back, take control of your daughter now and put your foot down before she gets any older or you will really be in trouble. Seek some family counseling

Just off hand, I would say that she has seen this kind of behavior somewhere. On some TV shows "the hired help" is treated this way. I would take a look at the shows that she is watching. On the shows, the kids get away with this. Have you talked to the sitter? Make sure that you tell the sitter that this is not correct behavior for your daughter. You don't want to lose your sitter. I watched a little boy during the school year and in the summer I also watched his two sisters. I almost quit because the 9 year old was so rude. Sometimes life is the best teacher. I would suggest that you give her extra chores when she acts out. Maybe the extra chores will help her learn that life is not always a pleasant experience. I would address the situation right when it happens. I would make her apologize to the sitter and give her lots of things to occupy her time.

I have a daughter who is 10 and started that attitude with everyone (including me and daddy) about 1.5 yrs ago. It's a pretty normal thing for "tween" girls. That doesn't mean its okay.

When my daughter is rude, we give her 1 warning/reminder. Then she gets time out. She has to go to her room until she can be respectful. Last fall it got so bad that I actually cancelled her birthday party (after a lot of warnings). I think that was a wake-up call. She didn't believe that I would actually do it! Things are getting better, although we still have to remind her. We also expect her to be polite to her little brothers.
I would let your daughter know your expectations, give her 1 warning (no lecture!!) and then send her to her room for at 5-10 minutes. Let her know that when you're working, Julie is in charge, and that means for your daughter, too. Give Julie the authority to send your daughter to her room, and if your daughter doesn't comply, then she looses priveledges for the evening. Whatever it is she normally likes to do in the evenings (I know you hesitate to take away books, and I would too, but I'm sure there is something else.)
Maybe you can make her earn the things she wants that you would normally buy for her. Do it on a point system, and she earns points for good behavior and following good habits, like cleaning her room (another age thing - she needs adult help still!). And she looses points for being rude or disrespectful. Determine in advance how many points she needs for an item - more expensive things take more points - and when she asks for something, see if she has enough points, or make her wait to earn the points. This can also help her begin to understand delayed gratificaation and saving up for things she wants, another of life's important lessons.

Finally, make sure that you are a very very good example. I realized that my daughter was often echoing me! I had no idea I talked in that tone of voice, especially with her, until I listened to her and myself. What you do will have much more of an impact than what you say!

I think the suggestions for restorative justice sound good, but one thing I noticed is you said that youu talked to her/ lectured her but you never mentioned whether you let HER talk. Find out what it is about Julie that she doesn't like or if it is not so much about Julie as it is about attention or jealousy or some other issue. I think we as parents (and teachers) forget to listen to our kids because we think we always have it under control and know what's going on...we forget that the kids have a different perception. Good luck! Hope you can get it straigtened out!

I think she needs to do some service for this woman to make up for her incredibly rude behavior. Clean her house or do some favor while she is there, and as long as she is acting this way, there is no reason Julie should have to drive her to appointments, friends' houses, etc. Until she appreciates the service she shouldn't get it except for basics to keep her alive and healthy. If it came down to it I would ultimately take away the books, but only if this other stuff doesn't work first. I hope that helps, I just feel so sorry for this woman having a 9-year old act that way would be so degrading. Another idea would to be to tell her that you are taking the vacation money you had set aside to take her to ____ and giving it to the babysitter as compensation for dealing with such a terrible work environment. Meanwhile, get her started on learning a second language so she can see the effort that it takes. If you take it easy on her now, she'll never learn. As for correcting the babysitter on the other two children, if she has an issue she should take it up with you as you did the hiring, she has no right to boss around someone that you left in charge. Ok, I think I covered it.

For a punishment for the way she's been behaving, I'd ground her from her books. Take away her library card, and box up her books, and don't give them back for the same amount of time as she's been being awful to your nanny. Whether that's one week or four weeks.

In the meantime, I wonder if she's missing her own nanny and doesn't want to 'betray' her by liking the new nanny. It can be hard for kids to hold multiple people close to their hearts like that. And maybe she just flat-out doesn't like your nanny. Personalities don't always click.

But that's still no excuse to be rude. One can be polite without being friends. Perhaps if you give her permission to not like your new nanny, but let her know she's expected to be respectful and polite, it would help her?

Over time, maybe her defensive walls will break down a bit, and she'll become friends with the lady.

I would try dramatically pointing out positives rather than focusing on negatives. Maybe even the old standby of the checkmark/sticker chart.

Perhaps having her list with you all the great things about her sitter (when seeing it being written down you can only hope she would be more honest and only be able to say tur/positive comments based on your observations- take note of the things she may point out as negative and counter them with your own related item)- and then asking if she is so nice and fun- why to you speak in such a way that hurts her heart? Point out that you know she wants to be a good person, but you are noticing she is making the choice to be hurtful. There is a power play of some sort going on- you may separate her from "thr group" as soon as you hear a negative/rude comment- that physical movement/immediate response may help her to realize you mean business. BUT YOU HAVE to be consistent- consequence- forced to leave room/situation- as many times as you can catch her- but then also really notice ANYTHING positive. At first that may be just that she did NOT say anything negative for the morning. She is looking for reactions (which she has gotten)-you have to help her realize that the positive reactions are more fun.

Dear K.,
When you do not guide her in her behavior she is left to act anyway she wants. As you can see - it isn't good. Your daughter should never speak to anyone, much less an adult, the way she is speaking to your nanny. I would have a serious talk with her about what has been going on and let her know that it stops - RIGHT NOW. She should then apoligize to the nanny for being so nasty. Then every time she slips up you must call her on it, remind her of the conversation you had and make her apologize immediately. You are the parent and cannot be intimidated by your child. Step up now or get mowed down when she is a teenager.

Good luck,
Dee

Your daughter does not have empathy towards her fellow man, which is why she doesn't see how rude she's being. Please teach her empathy quickly before it's too late.

Here's how: Every single time she speaks in a snipppy manner to ANYBODY, she needs to be pulled aside, instructed about how insulting it was for the other person (how it made them feel bad, and how would you like it if someone treated you that way, stuff like that), and she needs a boring, brief timeout. I make my girls sit next to the guinea pig cage and I set the kitchen timer. I don't even bother getting angry. I just say, "I don't care if your sister made you mad, we DO NOT hurt other people. Now sit here while I set the timer. What if the zipper end of the pillow had hit her in the eye? We'd all be driving to the hospital right now to see if the doctors could save the eye or if it will be blind."

Or like this, "Remember when that boy at Wal-Mart told you that you were ugly, and how shocked you were, and you cried a little? That's how Maggie feels when you tell her she's stupid. Please don't talk to people like that. It's mean."

I know that sounds dramatic, but in teaching empathy, we need to make it clear about the other person's feelings or possible potential physical injury.

Lastly, I've noticed that children talk to each other AND adults like this in those television shows which feature teens & pre-teens. The children who watch assume that this behavior is normal. I suggest not letting her watch those types of shows.

Can her Dad step in and role model good behavior also?

I wouldn't ground her from her books. That is something you don't want to put a negative connotation on, but rather encourage. It almost sounds like she might have some jealousy issues towards the nanny. Is that possible? Maybe it bothers her that the nanny takes care of the younger children instead of her? Or that SHE would like to be the one caring for her siblings? It sounds like you have a very intelligent girl on your hands and she may feel that she is responsible enough to care for her younger siblings and resents the nanny for stepping in. I would say trying to get to the root of what is really bothering her is the first step. Good Luck, I hope you can find out what's really going on without too much conflict.

I have an 8yr old, and when she is sassy I come down on her like a ton of bricks, "What did you say!? That tone of voice is NOT acceptable. You DO NOT talk to adults that way. Julie is an adult and you will apologize for talking to her that way." Then she must apologize.

In my humble opinion, it's one thing to be agast at what they say, but something entirely different when you make them apologize for it. I tell her, "I can't make your choices for you, but you can't choose the consequence when you choose to behave that way." And follow through. Even in public.

Good luck!

Sounds like you have received lots of good advice. I would also go with a double sided system...something good for good behavior, some thing bad on the other end. Respect is a huge issue for kids when "grow into themselves" in later years. I believe you need to pay super close attention to this and stop it now before it turns on you when she is a teenager.

Likewise, I also believe in the "village" concept. You can't possible be around all the time to correct your children, so you need other adults who are willing to do that consistently while you are absent. If you and Julie can come up with a system so Julie has a option that she knows is okay with you, I believe that would be key to her behavior change. GL!

I think you've got some great suggestions for approaches. I have to say, I would NOT ground her from her books. I am a firm believer in encouraging a child's love of reading as much as possible. I'm afraid if you used her books as a punishment, it might give them a stigma that would interfer with her love of reading and learning. In addition to the suggestions for you to call her out about her behavior, I think you should talk to the nanny and give her "permission" to call your daughter out on her behavior and even remove her from the room for some quiet time in her room or something similar so she knows that not only are you not going to put up with it but your nanny won't either. Good luck!

I am in favor of the advice of 'ignoring' her when her bahavior is in appropriate. Also, as a child I was an avid reader and the opnly punishment that had any effect on me was my mother taking my books away. She would leave them where I could see them, but if I was caught reading them, they were destroyed.

Also, if you do desire to put her in a martial art for self-dicipline, I recomend the Pacific Martial Art system. I can get you the contact information (for Salt Lake area) if you would like. They take students as young as 8, have a state certified teacher as one of the instructors, and they may still offer the first month free. PMA is one of the few systems I have found where the self dicipline aspect of things is really core to everything they do.

I loved that "restorative justice" approach. I'm going to use this with my child.

Only thing I'd add to what some other mothers wrote is that I've learned asking WHY my daughter did something or felt something tends to shut down the answers. Asking WHAT she was feeling tends to keep the communication open.

You sound like you're already an excellent parent.

Were I in that situation I would venture to ask your daughter why she feels she needs to act out in this way? has the sitter done something or acted in some way to 'cause her to dislike or disrespect her? I would start there. I might also consider why the sitter hasn't asserted herself. It's possible that having Mom "home" (but working), the sitter "in charge" (but Mom keeps intervening), it's a confusing situation for any school-aged child.
I'm out of my element here, that's the first thing that popped into my head. I hope it turns out for the best!