3Rd - 4Th Grade Education, Please Weigh In

If the teacher is not giving him advanced material, why don't you? Get books from the library. My daughter went through most of the Hardy Boys and Nancy Drew mysteries last year when she was in 3rd grade. She was learning how to use Microsoft Word on the laptop. She had music lessons on the recorder. She had Chinese language lessons after school. Now in 4th grade we enrolled her in GATE and the GATE activities supplement classroom instructions.

As a reading teacher I can tell you that in 3rd/4th there usually is not a "required reading" list. Research shows that if kids have free choice in their reading, they will enjoy reading more, read more books, and the more they read, the better their reading will get. If there is required reading, it is what is included in the district's reading curriculum. Otherwise independent reading is free choice.

In our district at 3rd/4th grade, kids are really working on genre expansion, vocabulary expansion, and building stamina. They are expected to read a chapter book a week. Our students have free choice in what they read during their independent reading time. They do need to show evidence of having to read a variety of genres. They are expected to read from a genre list including History, Social Studies, Biography/ Autobiography, Science, Adventure stories, Contemporary / Realistic Fiction, Horror (that is age appropriate), Traditional Tales, Fables, Folktales, Myths, Drama, Poetry, Journals, Speeches, Tall Tales, Poetry, Media (newspapers and magazines). Graphic novels would also be allowed. Never are they expected to read specific titles for independent reading. Teachers may give them examples of books in each genre, but the kids pick what they want to read.

They also learn Greek and Latin root words, prefixes, and suffixes as a way of building their vocabulary. Some teachers have kids keep "word collections" of words that they want to start using in their every day speech and writing.

They are also working on making inferences about their reading and using higher order thinking skills to deepen their understanding of the texts they are reading. (Google higher order thinking skills for examples of activities and sample questions.) They are learning how to make connections, compare and contrast, analyze, predict, think critically, etc.

I do not work with a single teacher who still has students do book reports. They have students keep response journals where they interact with the text. Some teachers will give students a question to answer about the book they are reading. For example: "What problem does the main character have to solve? What do you think the character will do to solve the problem?" "What words does the author use to describe the setting/characters?" "From what you know of the main character so far, would you want to be friends with him/her? Why or why not? What evidence is there in the text to support your response?" Some teachers might have students write 5 paragraph papers about a book, but they aren't quite the same as the old book reports we did as kids. It is more about the writing process for a 5 point essay than it is about the book.

I wouldn't count on the volume of homework increasing with a change of schools. Research has shown that if homework is just busy work, it isn't necessarily beneficial for student learning. More and more schools are taking the stance that homework should be minimal and intentional. Lots of homework does not necessarily equal a "good education."

As a former gifted and talented teacher I can tell you that in elementary schools GT services are very limited. Most GT service (if it is there) is a pull out program that happens just once or twice a week for 30-45 minutes. Classroom teachers do what they can to provide enrichment for advanced learners, but the reality is that they also have limited time and resources. Two of my colleagues who teach 4th grade recently spent an entire day working on developing enrichment activities just for math. Unfortunately until kids reach middle school and sometimes even high school, parents have to take the step to find enrichment opportunities.

Our daughter is in 1st grade. We have already stepped into doing multiplication at home with her. We also have many science experiment kits, social studies and art books. We do a lot of enrichment at home. But, it isn't forced on her. We provide the opportunity for her and she decides what she is ready for. I have seen too many advanced kids (and keep in mind that advanced does not always equal gifted and talented) who are burnt out on school by the time they reach 5th grade because their parents have pushed them so hard.

My advice, take it or leave it, is to share your concerns with your son's teacher, but also realize that you will have to take some steps for providing enrichment for your son. That may be through summer camp experiences, community ed classes, or things that you do together at home. Start teaching him division. Find a robotics group or a Lego science group. More than likely there are some home school groups in your area who will have those kinds of groups. Maybe you can find a computer programming class for him. And let him read what he wants to read. Start a word collection of interesting words. Take family field trips to museums, nature centers, state parks, historical sites, theater productions, and concerts. Monopolize on your son's interests. The kids who are best educated are the kids who have teachers and parents who work together to teach them.

When you say that changing schools next year will mean that "the amount of work will be vastly different" -- do you mean you expect he will do a lot more work, or less? That he'll be more challenged or less challenged? Please update and let us know because that does matter.

My husband's undergrad degree is in math and his doctorate is physics and he says that learning times tables the way your son is doing, beyond 12, is mostly busywork. Eventually your son would use those kinds of numbers but not for years to come in school, and by then he'll be using a calculator too, so I think the teacher is trying to keep him occupied without having to introduce new concepts; she's just giving him memorization at a level that isn't necessary for doing math later on.

Does your area have any extracurricular math programs? Math Tree is a kind of math "camp" to challenge kids, and Mathnasium is a tutoring chain that also works to challenge kids who are bored in math at school. He might like a place that made things fun -- but you may need to shop around, get references, etc., so that he doesn't end up with just tutoring when he needs fun engagement that fends off boredom.

It sounds like your son is bright in more than math, too. Will the new school have some form of accelerated classes? How does he get into those, if it does? (Usually testing is involved if it's public school.) The end of the school year is coming up fast, really, so get details now.

Meanwhile, remember that enrichment doesn't mean just more math concepts or more books to read. Be sure to take him to lots of museums (many now have excellent programs for kids; kids' "backpacks" or other tools kids are given to carry around the galleries with kid-friendly, hands-on stuff to help them learn more about what they're seeing). Take him to arts events like concerts, plays and dance performances (they don't have to be little kid puppet shows, either--many performing arts companies and venues now will tell you if a "regular" show is good for certain ages, so check). Talk to your public library system and see if they have kids' book clubs that meet; many now do, and many have ones especially focused on boys, or ones that include a craft, or ones that are focused on certain types of kids' literature.....If your local library branch doesn't do this, be willing to drive to other branches that do.

Don't focus on academic enrichment and schoolwork to the point that you forget these kinds of options that are all around you.

My situation is amazingly similar -- wow. So, part of this will be an "I've been there too, sister." and part will be a bit of a cautionary tale.

My son is 7 1/2. He's taught himself all the multiplication tables (only through the 12s, though), plus the basic concept of exponents and square roots. Reads at about a 6th grade level.

For kindergarten and first grade, he attended a small charter school. The school had no gifted or accelerated options, but they promised to work with each kid at his/her own level. In reality, though, this school was under so much pressure to work with kids who were below grade level (on account of test scores) that they couldn't do anything with kids who were advanced. So my son just enjoyed playing with his friends. He read constantly, and he and I played all kinds of math games, but school was a social space for him.

This year (2nd grade), we switched schools and he entered a gifted-and-talented program. Wow. Huuuuge change. My guy went from thinking school was effortless and fun to scrambling to keep up with his peers, and carrying the weight of the world on his shoulders. He spent so much time scrambling to keep up (this week we're doing area, perimeter, circumference, etc.! no, wait, that's done, we're on to fractions, decimals, and division!) that all the creative self-teaching he was doing has really stopped.

That said, he's not miserable. He IS learning, but not with as much depth or enjoyment. I don't regret the choice. There were a number of concerns I had with the charter school (which I won't post here b/c they're not relevant and b/c I'm not completely confident of privacy). But I feel like I've learned something really important from experience: Kids who are natural learners? They don't need learning poured into their heads. They'll seek out learning on their own. Challenge them too much externally, and they'll stop challenging themselves.

Finally, on the question of reading, I don't think there's a specific set of books that all kids have to read at a certain age. There's a certain reading level they should master, but that doesn't sound like an issue for your son. More generally, I DO think kids should read certain classics. The E.B. White books. The Chronicles of Narnia. The Hobbit. That kind of thing. But this may be more of a children's librarian question, less a question for school.

Finally, if your son is a math and science whiz, he might enjoy Stephen and Lucy Hawking's George's Secrets of the Universe series. My son loved these:

http://www.amazon.com/Georges-Secret-Universe-Stephen-Haw...

I am a teacher and we are supposed to modify instruction and assessment to meet the needs of each child --including the ones who are gifted or performing above grade level.

I was an academically advanced elementary & middle school student in the 1970s and 1980s in overcrowded and underfunded schools. With only a couple exceptions, my teachers always figured out a way to keep me challenged.

My younger daughter (not quite 8) is reading middle school material in class because she was tearing through the 2nd grade books at breakneck speed. It took a while for the teacher to "get it" and it helped that Chickpea really is one of those idle hands are the devil's workshop kids. We buy books for her use in class periodically so that the teacher sees we aren't putting the entire demand for enrichment solely on her shoulders.

Don't worry about the volume of work. Go for quality over quantity. Look for one page of math word problems that require higher order thinking skills rather than three pages of multiplication. You may have to purchase some of these materials yourself. There are teacher supply stores that can help you select but the books themselves are always cheaper on Amazon.

Provide challenges outside of school. If your son loves math, put him in an engineering class after school or on the weekends.

Public schools do not offer advanced classes for elementary schools, instead they tend to have "accelerated" classes, They move at a faster pace and cover the subjects in different ways.

So YOU requested he be held back, but now you wan this teacher to put together a different lesson plan for your son?

I think it is ok to request this, but I also think you feel like your son is still not being challenged. And so you need to go to a Teacher supply store.
Look for some work books for different subjects. Let him work on some of the different subjects.
Science, Writing, Math.. Division seems to be the next level.
Look for work books on the 4th grade level.

Go to a Library and ask the librarians to give you the reading list for summer reading, 3rd, 4th and 5th grade. Let your son research from these books so that HE is interested in them.

Even better, if there is a really good independent Book Store in your area, get them to tell you their most popular books for 8. 9 and 10 year olds in your area. This way he will be able to discuss these books with the other kids in your area.. (social component) . There is nothing wrong with comic books, he is reading, but they can add up in cost, because he flies through them

Our daughter loved Anime, when that was a big deal, but she could read 2 a night.. So we started making her pay for them..

Here is a suggested reading list for 8 year olds
https://www.goodreads.com/list/show/835

Here is a suggested reading list for 9 year olds
http://www.goodreads.com/list/show/1635.Books_for_nine_ye...

Mom you really just need to look for a school that meets your sons needs. And maybe consider letting the teachers really lead on what your son needs for his social needs. Never underestimate what your child can handle.

Boys are pretty much immature for a long time in school, but the really bright boys,they MUST be challenged at all times intellectually.

Honestly, teachers are very aware and know that boys this age can just be goofy, but because they are trained and educated, they can deal with this.

Our charter doesn't offer gifted or special ed classes, they are not required to like mainstream public schools. While what you're describing does sound like busywork it seems like a lot to expect the teacher to develop a special "curriculum" for your child.

My kids were doing book reports in third grade and reading lots of chapter books on their own. There was no required reading from the teacher, just that they read something each day.

I think your best bet is to offer him advanced material at home for the next few months and then make sure the school he transfers to will meet his needs.

Our charter school is pretty advanced in general. What seems to happen is the "middle" kids get a great education. The kids that need extra help or the ones that are very gifted, not so much. We have a child that tests off the charts but is failing out of sixth grade. She is super immature but very bright and I think very bored. Clearly, she doesn't have a parent like you and I wonder what will become of her.

Kids mature socially a lot in the 4-5th grade. You might consider bumping him up a grade when he changes schools. My girls are friends with kids that have skipped grades and socially they seem to be doing very well.

We took our 8 year old out of excellerated programs last year and I have no regrets. She has bloomed socially-went on her first sleepover, did her first volunteer presentation in front of the class, tried soccer and found she loves it. I honestly think schoolwork was keeping her way too busy.
She's testing above average, but is learning important social skills by staying with her peers.
My son is in 3rd and my daughter in 4th. Neither have required reading lists. They have required reading amounts, but their teachers encourage variety. My 4th grader has to write her teacher letters about what
she has read.
Your a very involved parent-kudos for that. Just do your best to provide him with opportunities at home and start to prep for next year there.
If you know anyone who has kids that attend the prospective schools perhaps you can get some ideas about what to expect from them.

Memorizing multiplication tables past 12's is busy work. Crazy!!

Can your son read a book when he is done his work? At least this will expand his vocabulary and possible knowledge if he is reading historical fiction or science books.

My oldest tested any where between a 9.9 and a 12.x reading level when she was in third grade depending on what test they gave her. Challenging her meaningfully was difficult until she got to HS. My youngest is in 5th grade and tested at a 12.2 reading level this year. She is content to do the work given to her however and although she says she doesn't learn much in school she is atleast happy so I don't worry.

The next step after multiplication to the 12 tables is division, not more multiplication. Ask that she work with him on division, which is what 4th graders are working on this time of year (the concept is introduced much earlier, but they are expected to have division facts memorized at this point and to be able to do division several different ways).

As for required reading...not standard in my experience. I have four kids and my youngest is in 2nd grade. In 3rd grade, there was generally a selection of books in the classroom that the kids could choose from to read during silent reading in class and they were expected to read books of their own choosing (from the school library, town library or personal collection) at home. Same thing for my 4th grader. They don't really get into reading books as a class at home and doing book reports on those until 6th grade or later. My 4th grader's "book reports" are a joke - they have two-page template that's more like a newsletter, with one half of a page dedicated to a written "book review" and the rest of the sections are just lists of things or drawings.

Yes that sounds like busywork.
What would be more challenging would be word problems that are solved using multiplication. My son (enriched for 3rd grade math) brings home a lot of word problems. That is what he works on while other kids work on their 'math facts' (which is what our school calls memorizing the tables). Something like "If Jane has 48 total apples, and they are in 6 groups, how many apples are in each group?" Which he has to set up in a style that says "6 X _=48", and fill in the number. (there are more complicated ones too, but I can't think of a specific example off the top of my head). They haven't learned division yet in his class, but problems like this are clearly prepping him for that.

As for reading, our school tests each child for their reading level 3 times per year. The books in the library are organized by that scale. So on library day, kids don't have lists of books they are required to read, but every child is directed to the section of the library with books at their reading level, and allowed to choose the ones they want. And then they take online quizzes on the books they chose to read to see how well they can understand the text, think beyond it to apply the concepts to other things, etc.

I've been really pleased with how our school differentiated among different learners, I hope your new school is better at it, and that you can make some lemonade from the lemons this year.

You should look into Basis Schools in the Phoenix area. I believe there is one in Mesa and one in Chandler, but not sure. They really keep their students busy learning and they are always challenged and yet always excited about learning.

http://kids.nypl.org/book-lists?ListID=60#20

above is a reading list. Reading is so important. It doesn't matter if he is reading comic books, sports magazines, or classics, as long as he continues to read and enjoy it.

There are public schools in phoenix (one is called "reach"- an excellent program within a regular school) for high iq kids. public schools also have the AEP or accelerated classes that are not as advanced but more for social (social is very important too).
if you are sure on one of the 3 charter schools that you are applying to then I would get the curriculum from the schools to see what the expectations are for the following year.
The kids back east are way ahead in math than az kids. It is important to keep him learning new concepts. If you can get the teacher in the grade up at his current school to give his current teacher assignments for him to do while the rest of the class is multiplying that would make it easier on all of you.

I never had to learn times tables past the 12s. I think she is just trying to do as you asked and give him more challenging things to do.

It seems like what you really want is a completely different curriculum than the rest of the class is working on. You want her to have a curriculum specifically created for your child. That is unreasonable. You had the option of having him skip a grade - you declined that. Now, these are the "natural consequences" of your decision.

If you want your son to have more challenging, productive work, then you need to create it yourself.

And I would be careful about those lottery charter schools. If they are admitting by lottery, then admittance is not based upon academic achievement/potential. Your son may end up in a class with students who are not as advanced as he is and you may end up with a worse situation than the one you're in now.

Teachers have 30 students some are above level.. some are on level.. and some are below level struggling...

they cannot spend the kind of time an advance student needs on one particular student.. if there is any extra time..t hey work with the struggling student because no student can be left behind.

so I think you are on your own to enrich him.. I provide advance things at home.. school is for socialization.

Just be leery of private schools. We really looked into 3 for our advanced child and the quality of instructions greatly varies. Some teachers never even had education degrees and others were just collecting a paycheck.
We are happy at our current school but it is not perfect. We still do enrichment at home.
The G/T program was where the fastest, most academically advanced kids are directed here. It's really the best option though I learned it too late.